Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

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Shushh
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Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by Shushh »

Don't suspect this is an unusual question. Been looking around though, don't see many answers. Kinda asked in the General area a while back, got kinda a better question now though.

New to silencers and 300blk, putting together an AR pistol with a 8.5 inch barrel. Gun is for use as a PDW/Truck gun so the goal is quiet enough to shoot in the cab of the truck without harming myself. Without making myself disorientated or seriously damaging my hearing that kind of thing. Been reading a lot, and will be reloading. But the next thing to figure out is which can to buy. I think once I finally get it the can will largely stay on the gun and only come off for cleaning and the first rounds of new loadings. However one thing I'm not doing is a long hand guard so that if there's a need I can brake it down shorter.

I think I've got it pinned down to either the Liberty Chaotic Ti https://libertycans.net/chaotic-ti/ or the Dead Air Nomad 30 https://deadairsilencers.com/products/nomad/ or I'm open to suggestions.

Similar cans as far as I can tell, similar in weight, size, and cost, sort of.

The Dead Air is a little smaller in diameter and 1/2" longer. It's also more modular, both ends come off and a quick mount, different end cap, a muzzle brake, etc. can be added. I like the modular ability but I don't need it. It also adds a lot to the cost, weight, and length. I'm also told to get full performance I should add the muzzle brake/QD mount. That's another $350 and adds an inch.

The Liberty is bigger in diameter, 1/2" shorter and simple, nothing else to it. Appears to have been designed for 300blk but will work on my .308Win if I want. Need at least a 7.5" barrel on the 300blk, fine with my 8.5 but if I decide to go shorter later I can't with this can. The Dead Air has really no restrictions, so I suppose that's a point for the Dead Air.

I have no idea about the internal structures of these cans except for one thing. The Dead air has to have enough space inside it for their large muzzle brake/QD mount. Wouldn't this indicate that the first/blast baffle is some kind of compromise or deeper in the can? So is this a plus for the Liberty assuming I don't want the QD muzzle brake?

The Liberty is 2" around and the Dead Air 1.73", for me I think this is a plus for the Liberty. I'm no expert but I assume internal volume is important and the Liberty is larger while being shorter. I'd much rather go for better function and reduced length then fit it under the hand guard. So bigger is better in this regard? I figure this is a point for the Liberty.

The Liberty has an inconel blast baffle, the the Dead Air I guess is 17-4 stainless. So plus for the Liberty.

The Dead Air can replace the end cap. Not only in case of damage but there's a 22cal end cap I can get in case I want it to work a little better on a 22/5.56. Personally 30 cal is the smallest I own, but I might get a 5.56. So plus for the Dad Air I guess.

Cost, the Liberty is $705 MSRP but I haven't looked for deals yet. The Dead Air is $745 at Silencershop, but also I'd be rather inclined to at least get the muzzle brake($89) and Mount ($249), so that adds up fast. Guess this goes in favor of the Liberty as well.


Laying it out like this it sounds like the Liberty is a better can, but if I want to spend more on extra add-ons the Dead Air. I don't think I do, damn maybe writing this out made my decision for me. Hate to delete it now and I'd still like some experienced opinions, so let me have it.

Thanks.
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John A.
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by John A. »

I appreciate and understand why you would write out a pro/con list. I find myself doing that too. And it does look like you answered most of your own questions. And while many of the options of the dead air make it stand out, and to which you said you weren't really interested in the first/last place, look at what that does to the cost.

If you have the extra $300 or so to spend and are interested, get the dead air. Simply because of the additional internal muzzlebrake and a little more versatility down the road. That will help protect the blast baffle in your expansion chamber and will move some of the gas sideways and out away from the bore and may make it a little more quiet. Just know that if you don't buy/use it, you may be adding some serious first round pop due to the absence of it and having so much more space in your expansion chamber. And that's not something you need or want in the confines of a truck cab in case you ever had to use it. You may could pre-fill it with a gel ablative in absence of the internal brake, but you can also do that with the Liberty can too, even though it may not be necessary it wouldn't hurt the can and would still improve the db rating a little too. Just don't use anything caustic or toxic. Many guys like wire pulling gel. Don't squirt it full. Just a light coating around the inside of the baffle/spacer is all you need for it to work.

But for a basic can that performs well out of the box with no fuss, I'd go with the Liberty. It sounds pretty darn good really, and Liberty is a good company. Not saying that dead air isn't, but it's hard to beat Dave. He and I have talked a lot in the past.

OK, down to the nitty gritty.

The Inconel baffle are super hard and hold up better to heat. The rest of the monocore and the outer tube will melt before that baffle will.

The first suppressor that I ever made, I used simple, basic, engine valve spring retainers for baffles, which was made from 300M steel. Many don't know, but that's probably about as close to the next step down below Inconel for all intents and purposes.

I have used that can with a lot of guns over the last decade ranging from 22lr up to 308 and rates of fire from a single shot up to full auto. It has held up really well. Other than fouling and some carbon build up on the face of the baffles, I can see no real detrimental wear on them. If you're just going to be shooting subs only, it's serious over-kill. Though you can still use the can on 223 and 270, 243, 6.8 spc, 6.5 Grendel and others so it gives you enough versatility to still be useful in the future.

Just my humble 2 cents.
When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.
Shushh
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by Shushh »

John thank you very much for the reply, as well as all you've posted here, I've read a lot of your posts.


I was leaning towards the Liberty but something else came up. I came across a YT video on the Energetic Armament VOX. It's a long video so I timed it for you at the good part https://youtu.be/z17UQUYzPhQ?t=916 That is subsonic with a wipe.

So 6 unique things about this can..
1. It's made of C300 Maraging, which I guess makes it nearly indestructible just from shooting.
2. They use a serialized ring thing and if anything happens will fix it for free.
3. It uses a unique wipe system.
4. I can make and replace my own wipes.
5. It's only $600, and lighter at 12.6oz
6. It can use any of three QD mount systems including the Dead Air Key-Mo.

It's a small can, 1.5" by 5.9", good to a point, it looks like without the wipe it's on par with or slightly better then others of the same size sound wise. But without wipe it's hard to tell but I think the Liberty might have a slight edge on it simply due to size.

But the way they do the wipe changes things. It's very quiet with the wipe, and on ATF issues with the wipe I asked and here's the reply I got.

"You cannot purchase additional wipes but you can exchange them. Hansohn Brothers is offering a 1:1 replacement swap where you mail them the used wipe and they send you a new one for $5. Several other dealers are offering the same.

Alternately you can make your own replacement. Users can repair their silencers; they just can't manufacture and stockpile silencer parts. Replacing wipes 1:1 is acceptable. You cannot make them for other people or have more than one at a time. The old wipe should be destroyed before a new one is made. The wipe material is 1/8" reinforced silicone sheet (McMaster-Carr PN 3635K17) that we punch (McMaster-Carr PN 3427A26) out 1-1/8" dia disks. The nose hex is 1-1/4" (wrench supplied) and the wipe retainer uses a 9/16" socket."

Sounds like a really workable way to use a wipe. I'd previously dismissed wipes as they looked like entirely too much hassle. But I certainly don't mind the option, in particular for my application. I can stow it with a new wipe in and if I should have to fire it in the cab in a hurry there certainly won't be any issues from at least my muzzle noise.

Being smaller and lighter certainly isn't a bad thing. And if even without the wipe the sound is on par with the Liberty I can't think of any reason to chose the Liberty over this one. Gives the additional ability to use the wipe, the additional ability to fit it under a hand guard should I change my mind on that. No need to worry about baffle erosion so no need to deal with or pay for the muzzle brake.

So I suppose the only question is a without wipe sound comparison. This I don't know yet, haven't found anyone that's put the two side by side. Seems logical that the Liberty would be a little better without the wipe. But I can't be sure, maybe the tech in this can is better making it equal even though it's smaller. Maybe the difference is so small that it doesn't really matter.

Found a vid with a direct comparison(same gun and ammo) between the Vox, Sandman-S and the larger AAC 762-SD. According the this vid without wipe the Vox was better then the Sandman-S and about the same as the AAC 762-SD. https://youtu.be/_H-KzV0jv7w?t=410

So, I guess now I'm leaning Vox, I guess I'm either indecisive or learning, I hope the latter more the the former.
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John A.
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by John A. »

You're welcome buddy.

I've heard the term C300 grade maraging before but I have no hands on with it. Though with the highest nickel content, should be very resistant to corrosion. Probably real easy to clean too.

After looking up the properties at vascomax, it's mostly pretty good.

The max operating temp you'd be able to go is a little low and that is really it's biggest drawback.

When I say low, that's comparing to some other grades of metal out there, but still well above what any ordinary person would submit their cans to. I think Wikipedia said the melting point was ~1400*F, but you need to remember that things start getting out of shape and wonkey way before it actually melts so you'd have to keep in mind how hot you're getting it.

Wipes are good for sound suppression.

Not really so good for accuracy since the bullet must physically go through a wipe like giving birth. This would certainly be a deal-breaker for anyone that is planning on having any sort of moderate to long range accuracy or using their gun for precision work.

Not a consideration for just using for HD/SD and close distances, but only you can decide how important that is to you to be able to reach out and touch something when/if you want to.
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Shushh
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by Shushh »

- On the C300, the sales pitch on this stuff makes it sound magical. Doesn't sound made up, but they certainly push it.
https://energeticarms.com/vox-centerfire-silencer/ Bottom line though I think is it could be said it's superior to 17-4 stainless, titanium, and most likely inconel? And at a lower price then those often are. Would you agree with that statement? They certainly appear to stand behind that belief, back up the can with warranty, using less material so it's light, etc. It's also not like I plan on doing a lot of successive mag dumps. If I need to fire more then 60 rounds in a big hurry then I have much bigger problems then worrying about the can. I'm mostly concerned about minimizing wear over the coming decade or two, not making some crazy 1000rd youtube torture test video.

- Accuracy with wipes, I found a test a guy did, https://www.ar15.com/media/mediafiles/8 ... 670321.JPG Looks like about 1.5 MOA off on the first round through the wipe and right on after. Maybe I can fix that by punching a small hole in the wipe just slightly bigger then the diameter of the meplat of whatever bullet I use. But even still, the need for a long range accurate first round isn't really there. This isn't an offensive weapon.

- What I'd really like to ask is your best guess on a without wipe sound comparison between this EA Vox and the Liberty Chaotic? I won't hold you to it, and of course there's no way for you(or me) to really know without directly comparing them ourselves. But I'm sure that you can make a more educated guess then I can. My best guess is that the Liberty is likely to be just a touch better in that it's likely to have a lower more pleasant tone. But how much so and if it's worth it, ehhhh I don't know.
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John A.
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by John A. »

The metal composition sounds really good.

Yeild strength is through the roof.

Very corrosion resistant.

But like I said, the lower heat is really the main thing you'd need to watch with it and even then it would withstand more heat than you should be subjecting it to anyway.

Without a wipe, I would suspect both cans are pretty close in sound.

Between the two choices, I would lean toward the VOX too. Though I'd probably take the wipe out and leave it in the safe.
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MMA10mm
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by MMA10mm »

Shushh wrote:
I think I've got it pinned down to either the Liberty Chaotic Ti https://libertycans.net/chaotic-ti/ or the Dead Air Nomad 30 https://deadairsilencers.com/products/nomad/ or I'm open to suggestions.

Similar cans as far as I can tell, similar in weight, size, and cost, sort of.
I have been debating the same exact (almost) question. One of the cans I really like is the Liberty Chaotic (not titanium), because the non-titanium has 1-3 dB better noise reduction. The other can which caught my attention is the Thunderbeast Arms Ultra series. TBAC makes it in a 5", 7", and 9" version. https://thunderbeastarms.com/products/ultra-7

Your mention of the Dead Air has me reading more on them... I'm also intrigued by the SigArms line of suppressors. Sig has moved into suppressors in a big way, and they are paying attention to 300 Blk as well.

I'd love to hear others' knowledge of comparisons between all 4 of these cans. We can look up dB information. I'm more interested in what the folks here think of the differences among these cans to the ear, as this can be very different from simple dB measurements.
Shushh
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by Shushh »

John A. wrote:
Without a wipe, I would suspect both cans are pretty close in sound.

Between the two choices, I would lean toward the VOX too.
Well that's about as clear of an answer as I think is reasonable. I see no downside to this VOX can. Haven't ordered it yet, working out my trust and finding the best deal/source.

Thanks again.
Shushh
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by Shushh »

MMA10mm wrote:I have been debating the same exact (almost) question.
Yeah it's a tough one, ya can't try them out, it's a big decision cause of the cost and wait, hard to find reputable reviews, etc.

If you read on in this thread you'll see it looks like I decided neither and am going to grab the Energetic Armament VOX.
Shushh
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Re: Liberty Chaotic Ti or Dead Air Nomad 30, or?

Post by Shushh »

Well I ordered the Energetic Armament VOX, $600 from Meplat Group.
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