Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

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dellet
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by dellet »

StorminNormin wrote:
dellet wrote:If it only does it occasionally it will be difficult. Clean the gauge and rounds well that won't gauge. Use a sharpie to blacken the rounds and check them again, it should clean the brass where it hits the gauge.

You also did not say if you are de-burring the inside of the case mouth or not, the slight chamfer really helps in seating the bullet, really helpful on a flat base bullet. It really does not take that much force in the press to deform the case.

edit: Should of been more clear, are you de-burring Again after final trim?
Yes I chamfer and de-bur both after chopping the brass and again after trimming. It does this on every round but brass that I convert will go further into the gauge and the bullet seats easier. Brass that I have bought from an online vendor I probably need to start chamfering the case before loading because on that brass I can feel the bullet is harder to seat.

I will try what you said with the sharpie, but from the measurements I have taken on loaded brass it appears to be .oo1" above SAAMI spec just below the shoulder so that is what makes me think it is the seating of the bullet, but if that has to do with the seating die or the sizing die is what I need to figure out. I have not had time yet to try and make some adjustments from the suggestions made.
The Sizing die should be full length and I think Redding marks theirs with an FL on the die. I know they make a neck sizing die in most calibers but unless they mis-boxed it, a neck sizing die would not come in a two die set. Mine is definitely full length and I seat and crimp in two different dies/steps so it is easier to determine which is fouling up.

You said the empty converted brass gauges after running through the sizing die. So the problem is not there, but in the seating/crimp process. I know it was suggested to back off the crimp some,I would back it off completely to determine of it is a seating or crimping problem.

I do use the Redding dies, but as I said the seating die is different so the instructions will vary, but I do know they are clear that in the seating process they warn against allowing the die to contact the shell holder.

The SIZING die is set allowing contact. The SEATING die needs clearance.

You also said that after seating/crimp you then crimp again with a Lee die, Have you ever gauged between these steps? maybe the problem is where you think. Not sure what problem a double crimp might create.
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45r
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by 45r »

After sizing my LC brass it measures around .328 at the neck and around .360 to.361 just below the shoulder using Hornady or Redding FL dies.
I set my FL die to touch the shell holder and lock the ring and then back off my FL die about 1/16 turn on the press to let the brass and die center itself before it sizes.
You can neck size with a full length sizer by backing off 3/4 turn for bolt guns.
I got a Redding shim kit that has 64 thou for that and it comes with a 125 and 135 thou shim for 44 special to 44 mag and 38 special to 357 mag.
The 64 thou shim works good for neck sizing with FL dies.Screw it down all the way and back off 1/16 turn.
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StorminNormin
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

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dellet wrote: The SIZING die is set allowing contact. The SEATING die needs clearance.

You also said that after seating/crimp you then crimp again with a Lee die, Have you ever gauged between these steps? maybe the problem is where you think. Not sure what problem a double crimp might create.
It is indeed a FL die and is marked so I feel stupid not seeing that mark.

I have the seating die backed way off so that it will NOT crimp in the seating of the bullet so the die does not touch the plate; it has a lot of clearance. I am going to back it out the most that I can and still be able to seat the bullet to the proper OAL just to make sure no type of crimp is accidentally being applied by the seating die. Then in position #4 I have a Lee FCD that I use to apply a crimp.
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dellet
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by dellet »

and also gauge between seating and crimping. You never know.
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StorminNormin
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by StorminNormin »

45r wrote:After sizing my LC brass it measures around .328 at the neck and around .360 to.361 just below the shoulder using Hornady or Redding FL dies.
I set my FL die to touch the shell holder and lock the ring and then back off my FL die about 1/16 turn on the press to let the brass and die center itself before it sizes.
Sounds like your neck size is a little larger than mine is .323 and I think that is the issue. The pressure of the bullet being seated is causing a slight bulge below the should putting it .001" out of spec. I am going to try backing the sizing die out 1/16 - 1/8 of a turn and see what that does first. Then I will also make sure the seating die is not putting any type of crimp on the bullet, which it shouldn't because I have that die backed out according to Redding's instructions to not apply a crimp.
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StorminNormin
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

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dellet wrote:and also gauge between seating and crimping. You never know.
Will do. I have received a lot of great suggestions that I can hopefully try tonight.
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StorminNormin
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by StorminNormin »

OK, so tonight I tried making some adjustments. One note is that the bullet I loaded tonight is different than what I experienced before.....I know...I know...that makes it apples to oranges. Previously I was loading Sierra 125gr OTM and tonight I loaded Sierra 220gr SMK.

At first I tried backing out the sizing die 1/8 of a turn but that caused my case shoulder to be a hair higher and then my Little Crow WFT would not trim below 1.360". So I put it back to touching the plate, re-sized again, and then I could trim to 1.354".

I backed my seating die out as far as I could to still seat the bullet to OAL to make sure no crimp was being applied.

The brass I bought online had a neck size of .323" and had been very tight seating the bullet which is what I think caused a bulge below the case shoulder making it not fit into the Sheridan Case Gauge.

I decided to re-size this online brass in my sizing die and after doing that the neck size was .330". Once I seated the bullet everything looked good and then I applied a medium crimp in my Lee FCD and there were no changes.

I dropped the loaded rounds into the Sheridan Case Gauge and they dropped all the way in just fine. I think it was the fact that the online brass I bought had too small of a neck; I will not buy from them again as I now have to re-size all of the brass I got from them.

I will know for sure if this is the issue once I load the SAME bullet as I did before when I had the problem.
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dellet
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by dellet »

Happy to hear you've had some success, was wondering. I do have a couple questions.

In your original post you were forming your own. Tonight you are using purchased, pre-formed. Is this correct?

if so which ones are you having trouble with?

It almost sounds like the ones you are having trouble with were formed with a bad expanding ball, or without one completely.

The big difference in the bullets you are working with is the 125 has a flat base and will certainly be very difficult to seat if the neck opening is too small. the 220 is a boat tail and the taper will more or less work as the expanding ball as it is forced down the neck. So you may only be fixing the symptom not the root cause of crushing the cases.
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dellet
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Re: Please Help Me With a Resizing or Bullet Seating Problem

Post by dellet »

StorminNormin wrote:
45r wrote:After sizing my LC brass it measures around .328 at the neck and around .360 to.361 just below the shoulder using Hornady or Redding FL dies.
I set my FL die to touch the shell holder and lock the ring and then back off my FL die about 1/16 turn on the press to let the brass and die center itself before it sizes.
Sounds like your neck size is a little larger than mine is .323 and I think that is the issue. The pressure of the bullet being seated is causing a slight bulge below the should putting it .001" out of spec. I am going to try backing the sizing die out 1/16 - 1/8 of a turn and see what that does first. Then I will also make sure the seating die is not putting any type of crimp on the bullet, which it shouldn't because I have that die backed out according to Redding's instructions to not apply a crimp.
Should have caught the problem here, combined with your first post, sorry.
The converted brass has a wall thickness at the neck of .012".

The case neck of the empty brass is .323" and after being loaded it is .332"

The empty case body below the shoulder is .362" and .363" after loading.
Do the math, .323 neck diameter less .024 for wall thickness is a diameter opening of .299.
You are trying to shove a flat bullet of .308 diameter, .009 is a huge interference fit. Easier to crush the case than accept the bullet.

45r gave you the measurement of .328, less .024 = .304 This is much more reasonable, only .004.

Measure your cases after you size them and they will probably be closer to 45r's.

For what it's worth I always size my brass, no matter who I buy it from even factory new. There is much more deformation shipping and handling than you would think, and my life might depend on someone else doing something really stupid.
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