300 BO AR Pistol vs IWI 300 BO Tavor

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FromtheShadow
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300 BO AR Pistol vs IWI 300 BO Tavor

Post by FromtheShadow » Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:35 pm

I do know the difference between the two. I know one is very modular and the other is a bull pup. I also know the trigger difference and that Giessle can make up for that if need be. But here is what I am looking to do and see which is best or your thoughts:

I have a 300 BO pistol now and am wanting to use it for an all round purpose pistol. It is being used as a HD but also as a tool to get out of issues if I need to. I just pray I never need it for that.

I am wanting to do some things with my pistol that I want to make sure it does not go over to the SBR side of things. I want some sights (I have irons on now) and I have a brace that was purchased from a LGS here in my area.

I have no restrictions other than the normal nonsense restrictions that the ATF and our "representatives" put on us but outside of that, I guess you would say a free state.

However, I want the versatility of having either a LPVO or a red dot and a flip to side magnifier. On a pistol, I am entering a gray area there.

If you have shot both, which do you say? Why? I have never held a Tavor, let alone seen one, so I am speaking from inexperience. The AR I have been using them for several years now and love the platform. Went from a rifle to a pistol for the HD and easy carry, but the Tavor gives that as well without the SBR issues that can arise.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. I have searched other places, such as ar15.com, Tavor forums, bull pup forums, and all I found were, "Stick with the AR. It is the best!" or "Those who do not own a Tavor have no idea what they are speaking about. Go Tavor, it is the best!" and then, "Pistols? Why that when you can have a bullpup? Bullpups are the best!"

I figure that this place is set on the 300 blackout and as long as it stays that caliber, I am hoping to actually have a strong conversation one way or another. Thanks for the help.

I want versatility, the ability to carry a compact setup, have more than the Iron Sights without SBR risks, and maintain my 300 BO. Either way, I am good. Thanks in advance.
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Re: 300 BO AR Pistol vs IWI 300 BO Tavor

Post by BJK » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:24 am

FtS, you can tell us what state you live it. No one here cares except to give a potentially better answer.

I have both bullpups and ARs though I don't have a Tavor, but the ones I've handled felt good to me. As you wrote else where they have a 16" barrel making them rifle legal. So you can add whatever you want for sights. After getting my bullpups then I built my 300BLK handgun if that tells you anything. One bullpup in the safe is a KelTec and while having a good trigger and relatively light weight, it's not a rifle I'd willingly take into the puckerbrush. The other is a Desert Tech MDR in .223 Wylde. It has internals built for .308 so it's an anchor and now it has a great $300 trigger. I was supposed to get a conversion for the MDR in .300BLK but I'm glad I didn't. The handgun I built is a case of less being more. I wouldn't have been happy with the MDR in 300BLK.

You can add a red dot with infinite eye relief to your handgun with no problems, it'll still be a handgun. A short eye relief scope? That can be argued. I wouldn't add any scope (even one with long eye relief) because it narrows down what can be done with it. I assume the issues you write of would contain people. The 300BLK will do the job much farther than you think it will with the right ammo. That's with a 1x red dot. But remember the idea of SD is to disengage before even engaging. The only time we fire is when there is no other option.

If you're staying with 300BLK you'll get a bit more velocity from the long barrel, but at what cost? Every thing is a tradeoff. To get one thing you give up something.

The last thing I would do is to allow ATF to "write" more laws based on my fear. Since it's all governed by definitions I would find out what's legal and work from that. FWIW, ATF loves to stop lawful gun ownership with our fear.

Gotta run, no time to even proof read.

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Re: 300 BO AR Pistol vs IWI 300 BO Tavor

Post by BJK » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:27 pm

OK, I'm back a day later. Just some more things to consider...

Oh, and it's OK to define the "issues" you referred to instead of using words that cloak the meaning. We've heard it before and many of us have the same thoughts. It's one of the things we do on gun forums; discuss those thoughts. Our firearms have the potential use of defending ourselves from human predators and we know that. Just don't be a rabid ravening wolf (you haven't been) and it'll work fine and you won't turn anyone off.

Back to pros and cons of the bullpup rifle vs the AR handgun.

Depending on your state laws, you may or may not be able to have your AR handgun loaded in your vehicle. That might be an advantage. I live in Maine and a loaded rifle in the vehicle is definitely verboten here. The mag can be loaded but it can't be inserted into the rifle. But a handgun (even an AR handgun) can be carried with a mag in place and one round in the chamber because it's technically a handgun. Would a local LEO know that? I have no idea, I suppose it would depend on the LEO. I've discussed it with the LGS where I do business; they're also a manufacturer of SBRs and AR handguns as well as sell machine guns and silencers, etc'. But our LEOs are sworn to enforce state laws and not federal law and not all know firearm law. I would remind them of that if I had issues. That would be a nice way of saying that their butt is naked and hanging out in the wind. They need to stay in their lane. But we also have lots of LGS that sell machine guns and such (and that local manufacturer) and they know the technicalities. Before it came to the local LEO defending their actions in court I would suggest that they get a supervisor and check with folks who know the technicalities. Nicely, and not in a threatening manner, basically help them do their job.
An AR can also be built to be folded. Can't do that with a bullpup. It can also have an adjustable length arm brace. In bullpups maybe the Hellion has that feature? I seem to remember that.

I think you're correct to stay clear of grey areas, but a red dot is not a grey area. Plenty of handguns wear red dots today. Not even ATF can tell one how to employ a handgun, as written in a letter from ATF that states that. Shouldering an arm braced handgun is OK, as is holding it out at arms length, or strapped it to the arm. That’s the beauty of a red dot, it works at 2" eye relief or 10'. Add a magnifier? I never used one so can’t address it. But 1x has worked for a VERY long time.

One advantage to the Tavor and other bulpups, it's another firearm if you need justification to buy another. Bullpups are also available in bigger cartridges than 300BLK or 5.56. The Desert Tech MDR is available in many cartridges and was first developed for the 7.62, and the Keltec RFB is a .308. Maybe there are others, IDK.

So many choices and tradeoffs to make. You just need to decidee what you want to do and decide how to get it done and understand that just because what you decide might not work for others, it works for you. No need to justify it to others. Anyone whos states categorically that something is best for you? Maybe they know you but highly unlikely on a forum.

I will state that the Tavor is battle proven, but so is the AR15 (M16), and the AK. I’d stick with battle proven arms. The Keltecs? Not battle proven at all and I see glaring “errors” in their design that tell me they have no business being in the puckerbrush. I have a RDB, but I'll never be in the puckerbrush again. That possibility ended for me a few years ago.

While on the subject of bullpups, there is a rumor that the Springfield Hellion will eventually be produced chambered in other cartridges other than 5.56 NATO. I think I remember 300BLK mentioned (makes sense). It is also battle proven.

I have no idea what your level of expertise is, but most everyone is far more proficient in their mind than they actually are (people lie to themselves). I taught basic handgun for a time and all males, with one exception, was an expert until it came time for them to demonstrate their expertise. Did they think I wasn’t going to have them show me!?? Then they were all experts in finding excuses. One downplayed his expertise and he actually knew what he was doing. Where am I going with this? It might be worthwhile to learn how to use what you have rather than buy another firearm. The 300BLK is a very capable cartridge esp’ if one doesn’t go looking for a gunfight.

Also, the issues you refer to, if they should happen how much ammo and how many mags do you have and how will you carry them (I don't need or want an answer)? I like to make sure each firearm is set up 100% before moving on to another gun. You might want to take some $ and get professional training. Again, I have no idea what your level of expertise is. There are lots of trainers of all sorts. If they train how to engage the way the military does I'd look elsewhere for a trainer. That's not what you want since that’s not our role if one desires a long life.

Selco Begovic has some of his writings and thoughts on line and he lived through the issues in the Yugoslav break up countries and stayed in town. You might want to check those writings out. Basically, one becomes the unseen mouse that only shows teeth when forced to. It might not be glamorous, but staying under the radar and disengaging as a first prioroity keeps one alive.

Today there are many sites for Selco if one does a search. Here’s one that’ll get you started.
https://conflictmanagermagazine.com/selco-begovic/

He’s also written books and they are worth reading.

Good luck and keep us informed as to how you make out. There are others here and I wish they'd add their thoughts.

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FromtheShadow
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Re: 300 BO AR Pistol vs IWI 300 BO Tavor

Post by FromtheShadow » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:26 am

BJK wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:27 pm
OK, I'm back a day later. Just some more things to consider...

Oh, and it's OK to define the "issues" you referred to instead of using words that cloak the meaning. We've heard it before and many of us have the same thoughts. It's one of the things we do on gun forums; discuss those thoughts. Our firearms have the potential use of defending ourselves from human predators and we know that. Just don't be a rabid ravening wolf (you haven't been) and it'll work fine and you won't turn anyone off.

Back to pros and cons of the bullpup rifle vs the AR handgun.

Depending on your state laws, you may or may not be able to have your AR handgun loaded in your vehicle. That might be an advantage. I live in Maine and a loaded rifle in the vehicle is definitely verboten here. The mag can be loaded but it can't be inserted into the rifle. But a handgun (even an AR handgun) can be carried with a mag in place and one round in the chamber because it's technically a handgun. Would a local LEO know that? I have no idea, I suppose it would depend on the LEO. I've discussed it with the LGS where I do business; they're also a manufacturer of SBRs and AR handguns as well as sell machine guns and silencers, etc'. But our LEOs are sworn to enforce state laws and not federal law and not all know firearm law. I would remind them of that if I had issues. That would be a nice way of saying that their butt is naked and hanging out in the wind. They need to stay in their lane. But we also have lots of LGS that sell machine guns and such (and that local manufacturer) and they know the technicalities. Before it came to the local LEO defending their actions in court I would suggest that they get a supervisor and check with folks who know the technicalities. Nicely, and not in a threatening manner, basically help them do their job.
An AR can also be built to be folded. Can't do that with a bullpup. It can also have an adjustable length arm brace. In bullpups maybe the Hellion has that feature? I seem to remember that.

I think you're correct to stay clear of grey areas, but a red dot is not a grey area. Plenty of handguns wear red dots today. Not even ATF can tell one how to employ a handgun, as written in a letter from ATF that states that. Shouldering an arm braced handgun is OK, as is holding it out at arms length, or strapped it to the arm. That’s the beauty of a red dot, it works at 2" eye relief or 10'. Add a magnifier? I never used one so can’t address it. But 1x has worked for a VERY long time.

One advantage to the Tavor and other bulpups, it's another firearm if you need justification to buy another. Bullpups are also available in bigger cartridges than 300BLK or 5.56. The Desert Tech MDR is available in many cartridges and was first developed for the 7.62, and the Keltec RFB is a .308. Maybe there are others, IDK.

So many choices and tradeoffs to make. You just need to decidee what you want to do and decide how to get it done and understand that just because what you decide might not work for others, it works for you. No need to justify it to others. Anyone whos states categorically that something is best for you? Maybe they know you but highly unlikely on a forum.

I will state that the Tavor is battle proven, but so is the AR15 (M16), and the AK. I’d stick with battle proven arms. The Keltecs? Not battle proven at all and I see glaring “errors” in their design that tell me they have no business being in the puckerbrush. I have a RDB, but I'll never be in the puckerbrush again. That possibility ended for me a few years ago.

While on the subject of bullpups, there is a rumor that the Springfield Hellion will eventually be produced chambered in other cartridges other than 5.56 NATO. I think I remember 300BLK mentioned (makes sense). It is also battle proven.

I have no idea what your level of expertise is, but most everyone is far more proficient in their mind than they actually are (people lie to themselves). I taught basic handgun for a time and all males, with one exception, was an expert until it came time for them to demonstrate their expertise. Did they think I wasn’t going to have them show me!?? Then they were all experts in finding excuses. One downplayed his expertise and he actually knew what he was doing. Where am I going with this? It might be worthwhile to learn how to use what you have rather than buy another firearm. The 300BLK is a very capable cartridge esp’ if one doesn’t go looking for a gunfight.

Also, the issues you refer to, if they should happen how much ammo and how many mags do you have and how will you carry them (I don't need or want an answer)? I like to make sure each firearm is set up 100% before moving on to another gun. You might want to take some $ and get professional training. Again, I have no idea what your level of expertise is. There are lots of trainers of all sorts. If they train how to engage the way the military does I'd look elsewhere for a trainer. That's not what you want since that’s not our role if one desires a long life.

Selco Begovic has some of his writings and thoughts on line and he lived through the issues in the Yugoslav break up countries and stayed in town. You might want to check those writings out. Basically, one becomes the unseen mouse that only shows teeth when forced to. It might not be glamorous, but staying under the radar and disengaging as a first prioroity keeps one alive.

Today there are many sites for Selco if one does a search. Here’s one that’ll get you started.
https://conflictmanagermagazine.com/selco-begovic/

He’s also written books and they are worth reading.

Good luck and keep us informed as to how you make out. There are others here and I wish they'd add their thoughts.
@BJK,

Sorry. Was out of state for two weeks and without any technology for majority of that. To say it was nice is an understatement!

I appreciate your input here, and as I do this, whichever direction I go, I will let you all know here.

But I do wish to work through your comment here as well, and hopefully get others to chime in as well. The cloaking, privacy, etc. is done out of reserve. I have never been on a forum before and normally I am very much one who doesn't like to "telephone" my thoughts, intents, or ideas. Hence "from the shadow". And it is not out of fear but I guess prudence. Hence I am also weighing if I give up my state right now. I don't know if I am ready yet for that.

So, I apologize for the seeming silence to keep things down low, but this is new to me. I did do a search for my state, which right now the only things we have to deal with is a Red Flag Law and a one handgun per month nonsense but couldn't find carrying a loaded rifle. Will keep searching. But in regard to the LEO knowing, I have had to correct several officers on other things non gun related, and therefore not sure if I trust them to know this. The others would not land me in jail.

But I also do not trust our sheriff, and outside three officers in our area, I do not trust them. I know many may be offended by this but I do not buy into the Back the Blue. I believe each officer should be measured based on their own merits and not simply because they wear a uniform. Fail to uphold the constitution first, and you do not get support from me.

I have seen too many times where groups who support the "blue" are attacked by thugs and officers just stand by: https://www.foxnews.com/us/denver-back- ... nti-police; https://www.theroot.com/portland-back-t ... 1844827209
And I can go on about the officers arresting parents at School Board Meetings, failing to intervine at school shootings, etc.

I will say, the few officers that I do trust and talk with, they are the ones I support. They will, without a moment's hesitation, do their jobs, and I will say, they do their job very, very well. I support them, I have helped them, and I stand with them. I got their six. But the ones I have here, now? No. I am leery of them to any real capacity.

I will begin looking at red dots. Not sure which one to go with but I want to make sure I get a decent one that will last and stand up to a beating. But since money is not as flush as I would like, I have to be picky. But that also means I cannot justify another purchase at this time. Because of that, I may build my AR platform out a little more.

I also agree with you. I used to want rooms full of guns and ammo but a friend of mine asked me, "How much can you carry?" In other words, Mobility over fortress. Between the two, if I must, I can carry every weapon and ammo I have. I like being able to be mobile. There is a strategy in that. If I had 100's of people with me? Mobility would still be a thing but a base of operation in some small way. But I am rambling.

Lastly, I try my best not to present myself any more than I am. I have some skills but I am not a crack shot. I can do some things better than other things regarding self defense, shooting, posturing, line of sight, etc. I have read too many "Internet tough guys" and I really don't want to be one of them. I guess honesty is my given posture. Honesty to others, as well as being honest with myself on my own skills.

Well, a long rambling catch up, but I really do appreciate your thoughts and conversations.
GOA member. Why? Because I want my money to do something good, not just buy suits.
Support solid, statewide organization. They are able to reach where national organizations can't.

BJK
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Joined:Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:30 am

Re: 300 BO AR Pistol vs IWI 300 BO Tavor

Post by BJK » Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:23 pm

FWIW, I fondled a Springfield Hellion yesterday and while the LOP is long, longer than I'd in theory like to have, with the stock fully collapsed I didn't find it to be a huge issue and most people are taller and have longer arms than I have.

edit: One thing I ALWAYS check is the trigger, esp' on bullpups. It was nothing to write home about, but neither was it a nice trigger, it was just "meh". But I'm very trigger sensitive. If I owned one I'd definitely keep my eyes open for a replacement trigger. The gent behind the counter told me that reports back from owners tell him that it's a gassy gun (as in gas in the action and in the face).

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