One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

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AggieJim
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One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by AggieJim »

"(Disclaimer: this review only represents my experience with a single firearm, and may not represent a typical experience. That said, Springfield Armory is about to take a deserved bruising.)

I purchased a Springfield Saint AR pistol chambered in 300 AAC Blackout approximately two months ago. This purchase was made based on price first, and availability second. My search included only AR pistols in 300blk with barrel lengths from 8”-10”. Other platforms considered included the Sig MCX, and CMMG.

My first trip to the range began well enough. Having previously boresighted my Sig Romeo5 red dot I sighted in out to 100 yards with about ten rounds of Fiocchi 150 grain without trouble. I then dialed it into Barnes Vor-Tx 110 grain and picked off a couple apples at the same distance – this is about as good accuracy I can ask for without a magnified optic. However, as soon as I loaded up some sub-sonic cartridges the problems started.

In a magazine with ten round of Fiocchi 220 grain sub-sonic only one cartridge was successfully chambered after firing. Discounting the initial round for which the charging handle was utilized that's a ~ 89% failure-to-cycle rate. I then loaded up a magazine of Hornady Sub-X 190 grain sub-sonic rounds with no better results. Good thing this gun comes with an adjustable gas block, right? I started tearing through the range bag that the gun came with. No adjusting tool could be found. I called the gun shop I purchased it at – no luck. Soon I was communicating with Springfield customer service explaining my situation, and they agreed to send me the hex wrench necessary to adjust the gas block. The tool was shipped expeditiously, and I had it in hand in week.

Range trip #2 didn't go any better than the first. Per the operating manual I turned out the gas block set screw a half turn, loaded a magazine with a single round (sub-sonic), and fired. Shot just fine, failed to hold the bolt open. Backed it out another half-turn, loaded another round, fired... nope. Repeated until the set screw fell out of the gas block (about a box of ammo), and upon close inspection the set screw didn't look right. Referring to the operating manual this set screw was clearly of the non-adjusting variety, and not a metering screw.

Another call was placed to customer service. As soon as I mentioned “sub-sonic” the representative says, “you'll need the adjustable screw to shoot sub-sonic, we'll send that right out to you.” Now, I hadn't said anything but what gun I had, and that it isn't cycling subsonic, yet he immediately knew that I didn't have an adjustable block due to the lack of a metering set screw. This is telling. Clearly, Springfield is knowingly building, and shipping these pistols without the adjustable block that they advertise. Nonetheless, I hung up, and I went back to re-zero with supersonic Barnes ammo (since I'd been messing with the gas system).

More than a week passed before I received notice of shipment for the metering screw. In the meantime I'd done significant research into this problem, and one thing really jumped out at me: if the non-adjustable set screw in my block already allowed the gas to flow wide-open, how would a metering screw help me cycle sub-sonic ammo? I didn't have much hope for their solution, so I went online and I ordered a high-end, polished buffer spring, and a lighter (3 ounce) buffer. I also learned in my research that virtually all 300 AAC Blackout pistol builds utilize: a pistol length gas system, a lighter, carbine weight bolt carrier group (BCG), and a lighter, carbine weighted buffer in order to cycle sub-sonic reliably. I would note that of those three things the Springfield Saint 300blk has only the first. It utilizes a heavier, milspec M16 BCG, and an H1 heavy tungsten buffer.

Nearly three weeks after the last call to customer service my metering set screw finally arrived. I returned to the range, and, as I had unfortunately predicted, the metering screw made no difference in cycling sub-sonic ammo. Customer service should have known better. So, I dropped in the lighter buffer, and tried again. Nope. Tried the new spring with the new buffer. Still no. New spring old buffer? Nah. No combination of my parts would allow sub-sonic rounds to cycle. But it gets worse: I also discovered multiple super-sonic chamberings that wont cycle in my gun. So, here's what does work in my gun: Barnes Vor-Tx 110 grain, Fiocchi 150 grain, Magtech 123 grain. Here's what doesn't work: Remington HTP 130 grain, Remington UMC 120 grain, Remington UMC 220 grain, Fiocchi 220 grain, Hornady Sub-X 190 grain. So, out of eight type of ammo tested only three will run at all, and I haven't put enough through it to know it runs well enough to trust.

Also, I've had two other issues worth bringing up. First, when the BCG strips a round from the magazine it has a bad habit of gouging the brass of the next round. This may be a fail in-and-of itself, as I've got little brass shavings inside the gun, and lots of brass on the underside of the bolt. Second, and it's only happened one time, but a Barnes live round very nearly got stuck in the chamber. It took all of my strength on the charging handle to pull the bolt rearward and eject the round. The cartridge was unfortunately lost, and I suspect the force of the ejection threw it into a different zip code.

As far as the rest of the gun goes: the buffer tube is obnoxiously long, so long in fact that when I put the brace in the crook of my elbow, and strap it on I cannot reach the controls. The flash hider is overtightened, and off by around five degrees. The “T” markings on the rail over-sprayed white all over the place. The trigger is pretty bad, even for milspec. However, the handguard is an excellent size, the gun is accurate, the overall size/weight are really good, the pistol grip is pretty decent, and the whole package looks damn good.


But, here I am, about two months out from my purchase, down about $500 in ammo, parts, and gas (range travel), and countless hours trying to get this thing running... and remorseful. For the money I could have (and should have) bought a more premium brand AR. I can only hope Springfield can get me up and running, and I suspect that it may require a whole new gun to do it. Even then, Springfield has failed here in engineering, construction, and customer service, and it's gonna be damn hard for me to come to trust a Saint with my life."

https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/saint-pi ... ew.439645/
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John A.
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by John A. »

Springfield is mostly just an importer, not really unlike century international arms. I'm not certain that they actually "make" anything.
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dellet
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by dellet »

Sorry your having issues when really there is no reason to.

A couple things stand out.

First I can’t think of an adjustable gas block out there that only “replacing a set screw” would make it adjustable or not, unless it was basically wide open to begin with and they gave you a longer screw to allow you to shut off more gas. I would need to see the design to change my mind. Generally if there is a set screw, it’s a 2 screw system. One to adjust the gas, and the set screw to lock it down, the set screw has nothing to do with gas flow.

The second thing is it sounds like it was setup wrong, to compensate for a design flaw. Standard setup would be M16 carrier and H2 buffer with pistol gas. No special anything should be requred to cycle subs without a suppressor.

All of this requires the proper gas port size and that might be suspect at this point. Lack of available gas, or a gas leak being the two likely suspects. It should have the gas block pulled to check for leaks and alignment.

I think that part of the problem could be slow carrier speed dragging on rounds in the magazine, but since it didn’t lock back on a single round, that’s questionable, assuming it locks back on supers. Either way, it should not really be happening. Trying different magazines migt be helpful and making sure the follower can’t get in front of the bolt catch and not lift it.

If there is as much brass inside the upper as you suggest, that may have made its way into the gas tube and be plugging it. You may be able to pull the bolt out of the carrier and find it there or in the gas key.

Or you could keep sending it back to Springfield and see which one of you gives up first. Stay strong.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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John A.
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by John A. »

I recall that the gas block that I was using was drilled for a small (standard) M4 sized gas port.

What this means, is that while my barrel was drilled plenty large enough to run subsonics properly, the gas port in the gas block was grossly undersized and caused cycling issues.

This was NOT on a saint. It was on a personal build. The whole point of my post is to tell you that weird stuff can happen.

And to agree with dellet, if it has an adjustable gas block, it works by screwing the bolt in to reduce the gas flow. Which you shouldn't do unless you're shooting supers.

When shooting subs, the screw should be backed out and allowing "full" flow. Not by reducing it.
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Sgt45
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by Sgt45 »

I've had issues with the subs on 300 BLK not functioning properly and wound up going to the Sierra 240 gr bullet and (I think) H 4895. I haven't had an issue since. I find that with my load I'm getting 1050 fps and bolt hold open on the last shot no matter what gun I'm running at the time. My issue the the pistol (which I no longer have) was accuracy and a HUGE difference in POI between suppressed and unsuppressed - like 9" vertical and 3" horizontal at 25 yards
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rebel
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by rebel »

As gun owners we are constantly lulled into believing that a noted brand will work reliably and as advertised. With 300 Blk I think over the years we have seen as many done wrong as right ( concerning functioning 4 ways ). It's a shame because the average consumer will blame both Springfield and (Inexplicably) the cartridge. That's a good honest review of the problems you have had, keep us updated as I will be passing this information on to customers of mine. Ultimately I catch the hell first.
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RyanMN
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by RyanMN »

I've had all the same issues with my recently acquired Saint 300 blk pistol. I never got as far down the road with subs vs supers and functionality. My testing stopped when using Armscor subs. The rounds got jammed so badly in the chamber that I bent the charging handle hammering it loose with a rubber mallet.

I was able to fire supers fine. But more often than not the bolt didn't cycle properly even with supers. I attempted to adjust the gas block just as you did and found the same thing. A plain set screw that does little to nothing. Mine at least came with the wrench to adjust the screw.

I did notice scratches and gauges in the cases, and even in the rounds that were jammed once ejected. I'm not sure if it was from jamming, or feeding.. I was too frustrated when I was at the range dealing with it all to take notes.

I called Springfield, they were nice.. said I could send the pistol in and they'd take a look at it. I choose to try a few more things.. and since the nothing has worked. I do plan on calling, and sending the pistol in to have them take a look. When I do so, I'll report back.. I'm not expecting much.

In the mean time, I picked up a POF 300 blk Pistol. Have yet to fire.. little time to get to the range lately.
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plant.one
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by plant.one »

jeepers what a hot mess that turned out to be.

i read the whole thread on xdtalk and wow.

why is CS over at springfield gone to shit? i dealt with them a couple years back with my XD and they were SUPER nice and handled everything i needed them to without any hassle
Reloading info shared is based on experiences w/ my guns. Be safe and work up your loads from published data. Web data may not be accurate/safe.
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Antrome
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by Antrome »

I purchased a Springfield Saint Victor pistol in 300 BLK a month ago. In one trip to the range using supers, I experienced multiple failure to feeds, failure to ejects, and outright jams. My range trip ended when a round was stuck in the chamber so hard that the extractor broke the rim off of the case. After I got home, and removed the case. I attempted to manually cycle several different brands of ammo through. Again experiencing rounds stuck in the chamber, and jams where the round ended up stuck vertically when attempting to chamber.
I contacted Springfield customer service who had me send it in for warranty repairs. I will post a follow up when I get it back.

So, I got it back in about 4 weeks. Springfield polished the chamber, and made some adjustments to the gas block. I’ve since put about 100 rounds through it with no further issues. I’ll report back again after I’ve had a chance to put in some serious range time.
Last edited by Antrome on Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TRshootem
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Re: One Guy's Issues with a Springfield Saint in 300 BLK

Post by TRshootem »

Yowza! If a bunch of country boys can buy components from several different makers and have a build that runs well...WTH. Sounds like they need to do some quality audits pronto. QC/QA was a large part of my job in a aluminum foundry, Expendable Pattern Casting being my production responsibility. I sure do not understand, having built 40+ rifles plus and a few pistols, parts from where ever I could get the best for the least...lube em and run em.

I am dismayed hearing of the failure of SA's product and support/knowledge. Hopefully they are able to get things sorted and make a customer happy.
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