End of the shouldered Sig Brace?

[Randygmn]

Good.

While they may satisfy some "I got's me an SBR" Mall Ninja fantasies, those velcro-arm strap contraptions look absolutely ridiculous.

You, specifically, are the problem, as it pertains to gun rights in America.

[Sithlord]

Actually even if it were true it is not good. any decision made by the BATFE, legislature or executive, that limits a part of a firearm for some cosmetic reason, is bad period.

I guess some may fail to see the jest in my post.

But if we're going there...

If you're relying on an ATF "ruling letter" for something that may or may not land you in the pokey, you're taking your chances and, well, good luck to you.

A few points:
1) ATF is not part of the legislative branch, but rather judicial branch, of our government. Their 'ruling letters' are an opinion. Consider any supreme court ruling - what the justices write are called 'majority and dissenting opinions'. They are not 'laws'. Cosmetic based opinions, while bad, are not uncommon.

2) opinions are not fixed or set in stone. The legislative branch is allowed to change their opinion at any time.

3) a third party correspondence will not keep you out of jail. If you have a sig brace and rely on 'millions sold' and a nice copy of the opinion SIG Arms received as protection, you are deceiving yourself. You are not privy to the entire conversation, therefore it is inadmissible. If the opinion of sig brace for a rifle is changed, SIG Arms would be notified of the change. SIG Arms is under no legal mandate to inform you of the change in status.

Given this, I believe your only get out of jail card is if you write the ATF for an opinion letter regarding the SIG Brace. If the ATF changes their mind and fails to inform you, you can claim legitimate ignorance of the current opinion. I am not a lawyer, so if you are concerned about the sig brace and your situation, please consult one.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[Toxarch]

The arm brace is classified as to it's "intended use". If you misuse it, no harm, no fowl.

On a separate note...

Shot guns are different. Among other things, one of their defining characteristics is they are designed to be shoulder fired. A shotgun with a barrel less than 18" makes it an AOW (subject to the NFA), not a pistol.

A PGO (pistol grip only) isn't a shotgun at all because it was never intended to be shoulder fired. However it's not a pistol, it's just a firearm. It's barrel can be shorter than 18" as long as the over all length is 26" or more.

I wish there was a picture so we could see what they submitted. You can have a shotgun with a 14" barrel and a "bird head" grip that is 26.5" and it's a "firearm", just like dead-bird stated above.
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
However, the letter in the article says the weapon submitted is not a 'firearm' as defined by the NFA. So are they saying it was an AOW?

[dellet]

Reading is fundamental. Legalize is a language best understood when experiencing a psychotic episode.

That being said, if you take a good read at the letter below there are a couple of things that stand out. The most obvious is the second paragraph concerning the "submitted example". By including the forward grip, the "submitted item" does not qualify as a handgun or pistol.

I believe that this is consistent with the ruling on a pistol becoming an AOW with the addition of a vertical forward grip and being less than 26 inches.

It is my un-scientific wild-assed guess, that the problem has more to do with the forward grip than the Sig-brace.

By adding the forward grip the weapon moves into the AOW category. By combining the grip with the act of shouldering somehow proves intent to construct, instead of misuse.

I would be very interested to see a response to a follow up letter that simply asks:

Dear Max,
Just to be clear, the problem seems to be with the vertical grip. If I redesign the pistol accordingly(remove the vertical grip) and re-submit the design to you, will it then qualify?

[Overton-AR]

Paragraph #2 is the ENTIRE PROBLEM.......He included a forward vertical grip on the "SAMPLE". That right there "negates" the pistol classification. It made the argument of the SB-15 being a "PISTOL BRACE" impossible. How can you ask permission to use a PISTOL BRACE on something that ISN'T A PISTOL.

The idiot that submitted this "SAMPLE" is to blame.

OK, OK.....the idiot laws in our "FREE COUNTRY" are the real blame....but you have to know how to work them in your benefit.

[gds]

Good.

While they may satisfy some "I got's me an SBR" Mall Ninja fantasies, those velcro-arm strap contraptions look absolutely ridiculous.

Actually even if it were true it is not good. any decision made by the BATFE, legislature or executive, that limits a part of a firearm for some cosmetic reason, is bad period.

I guess some may fail to see the jest in my post.

But if we're going there...

If you're relying on an ATF "ruling letter" for something that may or may not land you in the pokey, you're taking your chances and, well, good luck to you.

I will admit to the possibility of a miscalibrated sarcasm meter

[gds]

Actually even if it were true it is not good. any decision made by the BATFE, legislature or executive, that limits a part of a firearm for some cosmetic reason, is bad period.

I guess some may fail to see the jest in my post.

But if we're going there...

If you're relying on an ATF "ruling letter" for something that may or may not land you in the pokey, you're taking your chances and, well, good luck to you.

A few points:
1) ATF is not part of the legislative branch, but rather judicial branch, of our government. Their 'ruling letters' are an opinion. Consider any supreme court ruling - what the justices write are called 'majority and dissenting opinions'. They are not 'laws'. Cosmetic based opinions, while bad, are not uncommon.

2) opinions are not fixed or set in stone. The legislative branch is allowed to change their opinion at any time.

3) a third party correspondence will not keep you out of jail. If you have a sig brace and rely on 'millions sold' and a nice copy of the opinion SIG Arms received as protection, you are deceiving yourself. You are not privy to the entire conversation, therefore it is inadmissible. If the opinion of sig brace for a rifle is changed, SIG Arms would be notified of the change. SIG Arms is under no legal mandate to inform you of the change in status.

Given this, I believe your only get out of jail card is if you write the ATF for an opinion letter regarding the SIG Brace. If the ATF changes their mind and fails to inform you, you can claim legitimate ignorance of the current opinion. I am not a lawyer, so if you are concerned about the sig brace and your situation, please consult one.

Just my $0.02 worth.

My post may not have been clear. I was speaking to any rule or law or interpretation of any rule or law judge, passed, writen or voted on by the BATFE or the Legislative branch of government, or the executive branch of government, or the judicial branch of government, or any entity, individual or group or groups that may whether figurative or literary possibly represent us in the civilian realm or even possibly low level government agents.

[glocker17]

) ATF is not part of the legislative branch, but rather judicial branch, of our government. Their 'ruling letters' are an opinion. Consider any supreme court ruling - what the justices write are called 'majority and dissenting opinions'. They are not 'laws'. Cosmetic based opinions, while bad, are not uncommon.

Nope, its in the executive branch.

[jwb47]

you all do know that all sig braces have a gps tracking device embedded and the atf has an army of federal marshalls on standby.

[gds]

you all do know that all sig braces have a gps tracking device embedded and the atf has an army of federal marshalls on standby.

Well sure, they had to have something to do after they gave up on fast and furious, since you know, it was to hard to keep track of those guns.