novice questions - POWDER COATING

[oldpapps]

Pardon my novice questions. The subject is ‘POWDER COATING’.

First off, I am cheap, so cheap that I don’t squeak. Add to that, I’m lazy and not in great health.
Next up. I don’t have (or want) a suppressor, can’t see the cost or paperwork for my needs. So I’m not looking for a way to stop or limit leading of a ‘can’.
My interests lie in bullets for use in the 300 AAC Blackout (light weight end and medium weights) as well as other 30 cal rifles. And the potential of use with magnum pistol bullets, .44s.

My first concerns are safety.

I have read and re-read the listings and have a few unknowns that I am wondering about. I would ask these of Dolomite_Supafly, but there are so many knowledgeable members that may give other aspects for a fuller view. Thank you for your input. So here are my questions:

A) Listed is ‘order the 400 degree powder from PBTP’. At ‘Powder Buy the Pound’, most powders are listed with ‘Cure schedule = 375F/15 min @ metal temperature’ and only a few are listed with ‘Cure schedule = 400F / 10 min @ part metal temperature’. The question is; Is either ‘power’ acceptable or only the 400 degree preferred?

B) As this coating is to be used on cast bullets and the ‘RECOMMENDED MIL THICKNESS = 2.0 – 3.0 MILS’, this would not increase diameter a great deal. 4 thousands to 6 thousands of an inch is fully acceptable. My concern is more to the stripping off of the coating. Does the coating get peeled off in tight/er or with way oversize bullets in the barrel? If so, what velocity ranges if known?

C) May the coating be purposefully thicker? Say I have a bullet mold that throws .430 diameter lead but my barrel is .433 inch. And I want to be over bore to provide for the potential of the best accuracy. Am I looking at this wrong?

D) Some 30 to 35 years ago, I played with case bullet heat treatment. I found it very promising for some limited applications. The bullets were way too hard for hunting use (175/180 grain out of a .308 Win) and not needed for target use. My experimenting dwindled and ended. I have several pounds of ‘hard’, my standards, ingots of smelted lead. Depending upon the actual metal composition, eutectic (solid to liquid at or about 450 degrees F, no plastic state) but some alloys go to plastic as low 190 degrees F, have there been reports of bullets deforming during the baking process?

E) The instructions as listed are to let the coated, baked bullets to slowly cool. This would ‘kill’ any hardin’ing of the bullet. Have you/any of you, contemplated quenching the newly coated hot bullets? Would this be of any benefit or just a wasted step?

I see the potential of having cast lead bullets that may be pushed to higher velocities without the associated problems of ‘leading’, lube burn off smoke and all for a comparatively low cost. This could very well be an all new segment of loading. Soft lead bullets, coated and pushed to whatever velocity that is desired for hunting. Limited penetration but with great expansion.

F) One last question. Does the 'grease' grove types have any noticeable effects? Tumble type versus fat/wide grease groves.

Thank you for your indulgence. I know I get wordy.

Enjoy,
OSOK

[boost]

Ill try input some....I haven't gone far enough to test all types of powders . Once I find something that works very well I stop there. There are others that do. This PC fad is kinda in the early stages. TGIC powder seems to be working well for most.Hopeful there will be powder specifically for boolits also faster/better ways to apply. I'm so cheap that I get my powder from ebay and I also use my reclaimed powder. Some guys like to size prior to coating. I don't. But it really all depends on how much you're sizing down to or boolit diameter drops at. My boolits drops at .311-.312. After PC .314-.15. Then I size @ .310.

To answer "C" , my LEE 309-230-5R drops boolits .307-.309 and the PC cures
the undersized problem.

Some does water drop immediately after PCing with good results.

I like the lube groove because I still lube even with the powder coat. I do this only for rifle. My pistol boolits gets PC only.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdi ... ternatives

[oldpapps]

boost,

Thank you, the provided link will give me many hours of study.
I am already on the forum. I just never thought to look about.

Thanks, again.

OSOK

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I listed the 400 degree powder because that is what worked great for me. Does 375 work better? I have no clue because I have no reason to check.

I have shot powder coated bullets that were .004" over the bore diameter without issue. Well the only issue I had was with some foreign brass that was thicker. The necks grew to a point that it caused chambering issues but as far as firing the powder coated bullets I had zero problems.

I bake my bullets at 400 degrees and I have not had any that have went soft. I have only worked with wheel weights and pure lead.

I see no difference between standard lube and tumble lube grooves. I have never used any lube on any of the powder coated bullets, even those I shot to failure.

I have posted it before and I will post it again. I have tested the 400 degree TGIC powder to failure. I started out at ~2,800 fps and had zero issues. I slowly worked up to the point where I was starting to see lead in the bore. That velocity was 3,300+ fps. I generally post that it is good to 3,200 fps because of variations in guns. I have also shot powder coated bullets into water and the powder coating did not peel. It did get stretched thin but every piece I recovered had some powder coating on it.

[Ken73]

I have posted it before and I will post it again. I have tested the 400 degree TGIC powder to failure. I started out at ~2,800 fps and had zero issues. I slowly worked up to the point where I was starting to see lead in the bore. That velocity was 3,300+ fps. I generally post that it is good to 3,200 fps because of variations in guns. I have also shot powder coated bullets into water and the powder coating did not peel. It did get stretched thin but every piece I recovered had some powder coating on it.

You have no idea how much this makes me smile!

BTW, there is some powder out there that has (evil!) teflon in it.. Wondering if that would improve the really high speed rounds?

[oldpapps]

Dolomite_Supafly
"I listed the 400 degree powder because that is what worked great for me. Does 375 work better? I have no clue because I have no reason to check.
Fair enough, and answers most of that question, it works, don't need to fix it.

I have shot powder coated bullets that were .004" over the bore diameter without issue. Well the only issue I had was with some foreign brass that was thicker. The necks grew to a point that it caused chambering issues but as far as firing the powder coated bullets I had zero problems.
I had not thought of creating chamber/throat tightness. I original thought/hope was to increase the bullet diameter (with out buying a new mold) to seal/function in an over sized barrel. This is more for a .44 mag rifle than a 300 Blackout. Then it popped into my head, too thick of a coating, would it tend to peal off?

I bake my bullets at 400 degrees and I have not had any that have went soft. I have only worked with wheel weights and pure lead.
Alas, as I feared, it will depend upon what the alloy is. When I was working with heat treating lead bullets, I ran into some alloys that just wouldn't or couldn't, they went plastic at 275 to 280 degrees. Talk about a pain to get melted lead out of the bottom of an oven.

I see no difference between standard lube and tumble lube grooves. I have never used any lube on any of the powder coated bullets, even those I shot to failure.
A minor though on my part and you have answered it.

I have posted it before and I will post it again. I have tested the 400 degree TGIC powder to failure. I started out at ~2,800 fps and had zero issues. I slowly worked up to the point where I was starting to see lead in the bore. That velocity was 3,300+ fps. I generally post that it is good to 3,200 fps because of variations in guns. I have also shot powder coated bullets into water and the powder coating did not peel. It did get stretched thin but every piece I recovered had some powder coating on it."
Yes, I have read this many times and with each reading, I smile to myself, 'This is well within the velocity ranges that I am interested in.' Thank you so much for all of the valuable information. Now I have to see how I can incorporate all of this into my loading processes. Oh, my!

Thank you again,

OSOK

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Have you thought about beagling or lamenting the 44 mold to increase its size?

It is easy and cheap to do but does take some care and patience to do it right.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/BDE.pdf
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMo ... ngbybs.pdf

From here, which has an amazing amount of information.
http://www.castpics.net/

[oldpapps]

Dolomite_Supafly,

At this point I'm just planning ahead for a rifle in .44 Mag.
My son has been given 'hints' and I know he has talked with my x business property renter, a Gun Store, about what I want. The big problem for him/them is they both know how particular I am about my weapons and finding something that fits the bill, that is the problem. Matters not, if not as a gift, I will find what I want down the line someplace. Then comes the process of re-working, slugging the barrel and building loads to match. I could always be luck and find a barrel that matches my other 44s. If not, I'm trying to hedge my position. Being able to 'adjust' for larger bores is only more reasons to delve into powder coating. I will begin studying 140 to 160 grain .308/.310 bullet designs for use both in the Blackout and my other 30 cals with coating. Then, if all works well, move on to something lighter, 110 to 125ish grain with a suitable profile for the Blackout, the lighter the better but with shank length to be stable.

What has caught my eye is the possibility of standing each bullet on its nose in a holder (proper sized pistol case screwed down solid) and spraying (electrostatic) the drive band to and including the base with powder coating. This would give lead protection and a nose of just lead. With the proper profile, one bullet could be used for target and hunting and just having a good time shooting. Pigs are moving into my area and I like pork

Thanks again.

OSOK

[oldpapps]

boost,

I just reached my end with the link you provided.

It was: interesting, informative, irritating and enlightening.
I will NEVER read all of those entries again.

I got to the point that when a few of the avatars showed up, I just had to see what snide remarks would be made in that entry.

But, I learned a great deal. Now I have to determine what and how much of it was valid.
I find it interesting that photos of processed bullets are displayed with the statement 'I'll be testing these tomorrow or over the week end', yet no test results appear.

As for me, I will have to mull over all options for a wile.

Thanks again,

OSOK

[Dolomite_Supafly]

ALWAYS USE DATA FROM ESTABLISHED SOURCES.
The load data is not to be considered safe. Just because it was safe in my guns doesn't mean it will be safe in your gun.


ONE MORE WARNING!!! THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO SEPERATE COMPILATIONS OF SMP842. MY COMPILATION MAY NOT MATCH YOUR COMPILATION. DO NOT INTERCHANGE LOAD DATA BETWEEN VARIOUS SMP842 COMPILATIONS.
I have posted the results here somewhere. Either way here it is again:

This was referring to where I tested the 223 cast and coated bullets to the limit.

I was able to chronograph and actually push these to the limit. After that I shot one into water to see how they perform. I used a Savage bolt action with a 22" barrel that has a 9 twist.

I had two bullets, one heavy at 48.6 grains, and a lightweight one at 45.5 grains. The heavy was red and the light was copper.

Heavy using SMP842
24.0g= 3,132 fps (I think something was funky with this result)
24.5g= 2,818 fps (cleaned fine with no lead)
25.0g= 3,192 fps (cleaned fine with no lead)
25.6g= 3,331 fps (cleaned fine with no lead)
26.0g= 3,486 fps (hard to patch and lead came out on the patch)

Lightweight using SMP842
24.0g= 3,051 fps (cleaned fine with no lead)
24.5g= 2,983 fps (cleaned fine with no lead)
25.0g= 3,293 fps (started getting resistence with the patch but no lead on the patch)
25.6g= 3,247 fps (hard to patch and lead came out on the patch)
26.0g= 3,489 fps (hard to patch and lead came out on the patch)

I was really surprised that even after the bore had lead the second patch came out nearly clean. The third patch could have been used again it was so clean. At no time did I see any powder on the patches.

I would feel safe pushing the red to 3,200 fps. Even though it was clean at 3,300 fps I like to give myself a bit of latitude incase something does go wrong. I don't think the copper worked as well as the red.

I also shot one of the red bullets into the water jugs. The bullet weighed 48.7 before and 21.9 afterwards so it lost 1/2 its weight in the water. I passed through 2 jug and sprinkled the third with pieces.

This is for the 300 Blackout using a 100 grain cast bullet that was powder coated.

I sized them down to .311" after coating.

I started using my Striker. I started at 18 grains and slowly worked up to where the primer was showing signs of pressure. That turned out to be XX grains of Lil'Gun. After firing about 20 rounds at pretty close to max I ran a boresnake down the bore and had a look. ZERO leading.

Next I grabbed my AR and though to myself if XX grains is good in one it is good in another. Not so. I touched off the round and thought to myself that was a mistake. I guess because of the looser headspace the primer moved a lot more. So I went back to 18 grains and slowly worked up. I started to see primer movement at about XX grains. I fired one loaded with XX grains and it was obvious I was getting into a area I don't want to be. I went to take the gun apart and the bolt was a little difficult to lock it back. I looked in the ejection port and see what appears to be lead. I suspect it was left over form the last few times I fired lead and not from today. The bolt was hard to remove from the bolt carrier and there was some hard deposits inside that is like the lead deposits I had before. I cleaned everything up so I know the next time I shoot some coated whether the coating is causing it. I also suspect if it is the coating it has something to do with the bullets being loaded to beyond max. I ran a bore snake though the AR and again ZERO lead in the bore even after that super hot round.

One more thing. Before I fired these in the AR I had to turn my gas block adjustment 90 degrees to the supersonic setting. It was stiff initially like it normally is after shooting cast. Now after the coated rounds I fired it was no more difficult to turn. Normally if I fired 10-15 rounds, even at subsonic levels, it gets very difficult to turn. Not now so I suspect the debris in the bolt was lead and not the pwoder coating.

I loaded our favorite 157 grain bullet with 18 grains and they worked great as well too.

So for bolt guns I would say XX grains of Lil'Gun is about max with the 100 grain cast bullet. For AR's I would hold it to about XX grains for the 100 grain cast bullet.

BTW, XX grains is a case filled to the rim.

I tried to chronograph them but it didn't pick them up. I normally run it without skyscreens and didn't feel like digging them out. Next time I shoot I will make sure to get some numbers.

And finally, call me crazy but as I increased the powder charges the recoil seemed like it decreased. I suspect it was because more gas was making it out of the barrel for the brake to work with.

The load data is not to be considered safe. Just because it was safe in my guns doesn't mean it will be safe in your gun.

ALWAYS USE DATA FROM ESTABLISHED SOURCES.

I removed the numbers for the 300 Blackout because they were well into a level I do not feel comfortable publishing. Not because I could be held accountable but because I would hate for someone to injure themselves.