Please help a casting noob

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StanCT
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Please help a casting noob

Post by StanCT »

Greetings and salutations to members, on this, my first post.

I've just purchased a 9" BCM AR and intend learning how to cast and load powder coated subsonics.
(I'll most likely use jacketed bullets for supers).

I should imagine that since the BCM is a high spec rifle, I could be assured that the barrel is manufactured as close to .308 as possible.

My questions are:

Could I be safely selecting a .309 sizing die, without slugging the barrel first?

What sizing parts would I need to be ordering from the NOE website, along with my molds ? :
- push through size die body ?
- 30Cal .309 body bushing ?
- 30 cal push rod ?
- anything else that I'm missing?

Do these parts fit on a Lee Breech Lock Challenger single-stage press?

Your advice would be appreciated.
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Dolomite_Supafly
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Re: Please help a casting noob

Post by Dolomite_Supafly »

First thing I would do is buy a box of cast, and coated, bullets from one of the many makers that use the same type of bullet. Try them out before you invest a bunch of money, time and resources into casting. Not every person likes how cast bullets perform so it is better to waste $40 than it is to waste several hundred dollars.

There are plenty of other mold makers out there. Arsenal molds make some the best molds on the market. Accurate Molds also make some amazing molds and they are the only maker that can make custom molds in a couple of weeks. Accurate's molds are about the most perfect molds you can get. Not sure what bullet weight you are planning but Accurate's 31-240E is a proven bullet design. I would use either of them first unless NOE is the only maker of the type of bullet you want.

If you want the most accurate cast bullets get either a single or double cavity mold. Molds that have 4 or 5 cavities change as they heat up causing consistency issues.

If you plan on using wheel weights you must separate out the zinc weights. Aluminum will dissolve in molten zinc so your molds will loose their sharp edges over time if you do not. You can use a brass mold and not worry about it but they are heavy and more expensive than aluminum. And unless you melt down wheel weights in large lots you are going to have lot to lot consistency issues. With cast bullets they tend to be a lot more sensitive to changes so you want to melt down the biggest lot you can. I use an old grill to melt down 50 pounds of lead at a time. I also sort my wheel weights to remove zinc but to also sort them into hard and soft wheel weights for a little more consistency. You will need a set of shears capable of cutting lead wheel weight, that is the only fool proof way I have found to separate lead alloy from zinc. If you can cut it by hand it is lead, if not then it isn't lead and could be zinc, and alloy of zinc, steel or iron. Then as you cut the wheel weights you need to notice if they are hard or easy to cut then sort according to that. Stick on wheel weights should be kept completely separate from regular wheel weights. Then when you get enough melt down the stick on weights as one lot.

Also, a lot of wheel weights have a lot of other bad stuff in them, like arsenic, so you must wear protective gear to avoid exposure. This is coming from a long time caster who was poisoned. I thought I was doing everything right but found myself with a significant amount of lead in my blood. The way lead affects your body is noticeable and can cause life long problems.

One thing you MUST do if shooting cast bullets in an AR is coat your cast bullets. If you do not coat them you will have problems. Most people use powder coating powder to coat their bullets. I have shot uncoated bullets in ARs and the gas tube had lead build up and my gas rings on the bolt seized because of the amount of lead and that wasn't with a lot of rounds fired. You can use gas checks but they cannot be used with silencers and to be honest bare lead is not suppressor friendly anyways. If you shoot a gas checked bullets through a silencer your silencer you will eventually have one fall off inside. If you can't take your silencer apart it will be nearly impossible to get the gas check out and it will sit there waiting until it can jump in the way of a bullet and cause a baffle strike.

You will hear of people using "the dip" to clean lead out of their silencers but the result is lead acetate which is very, very hazardous. It soaks through the skin, crosses the blood-brain barrier and will contaminate ground water if poured out. It cannot be removed from water once it has contaminated it. Most big cities will take it but may charge you a hazardous waste fee to do so. It is better to just coat the bullet than deal with the hassle.

I am a long time caster and it has just become easier, and better, to just buy the bullets rather than cast them. Not sure of how old you are but if you plan on having kids, or have kids in the home, I would avoid casting. Lead can cause a lot of problems for young children.

But as far as sizing I would get a mold that is supposed to drop .310" and see where it drops. Depending on the temperature of the pour, the temperature of the mold, the temperature of the air, the humidity as well as the casting pace the bullet falling out of the mold can vary a lot in size. It is easier to size a bigger bullet down than it is to make a smaller bullet grow. And one more thing, too big is not a problem with cast. I have shot .313" sized bullets down a .308"/300" bore without issue. Too small can cause a lot of problems so when in doubt go big.

Buy the Lee push through sizing die at .309". Then use some 1,000 and then 2,000 grit sandpaper to open it up to .310" and polish it. Lee dies can be rough on the inside and if you polish them it will be easier to size without distorting the bullets. The Lee push through sizing die will come with the rod for your press. It will also come with the Lee Alox, which is a bullet lube, do not use it on your bullets because the coating will not stick to the bullet if you do.

You will also need a case mouth flaring tool because you have to flare the case mouth or the case mouth will shave OD off of the bullet and that will cause a host of other problems like leading, stability issues as well as accuracy issues. And speaking of accuracy you will not get the accuracy you do with jacketed. Generally speaking you will get 2x to 3x the group size shooting cast unless you put in a lot of work. Cast bullets respond dramatically to small changes and it often seems like those changes are completely random. Cast bullets can drive a person mad if they are accustomed to shooting jacketed bullets until they put in a lot more work.

Not sure what dies you are using but Lee are the worst. If you are going to shoot cast you not only need to flare the case mouth but you must also use a larger expander to open up the case mouth. If you don't the case neck will swage the bullet down to a smaller size causing the same issues as you would if you shaved the bullet from not having a flared mouth. RCBS dies are the best. Once you have a set of RCBS dies call them and get an expander ball for a 7.62x39 or 7.62x54, they are .003" larger than the 300 blackout expander and this will keep your cast bullets from being swaged by the case necks. Sizing sides are designed for jacketed bullets which are tougher than cast bullets. A jacketed bullet will open up the case mouth to fit, a cast bullet may or may not do the same depending on alloy. If the alloy is softer then it will be the bullet that gets sized down to fit instead of the case neck being opened up to fit.
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StanCT
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Re: Please help a casting noob

Post by StanCT »

Thank you for all the pointers in your considered, detailed response. This helps a lot.

Thusfar, I have a reliable but slow supply of motorcycle stick-on wheel weights & batteries. Due to the associated chemical hazards, I am only utilizing the battery terminals and connector strips between the cells, not the actual plates from within the cells.

I heed your poisoning concerns and use disposable nitrile rubber gloves and a good quality breathing filter at all times when handling, melting & pouring. I plan to have myself annually medically tested for lead exposure. I am nearly 50 and don't plan to reproduce :) nor have kids in the home.

You are the second person that has sung praises for Accurate molds, so will be looking at them.

I liked the look of the NOE HTC310-247-FN-BO3 RG2 cavity PB because of the hollow point, which some guys seem to be getting good expansion results from.

I was also concerned about lead contamination of rifle & suppressor, so will most certainly only be feeding it powder coated bullets.

I hear what you say about casting and coating vs just buying the bullets, which does seem so much more of a short cut. I guess it's also a time vs money debate.

I currently have a Dillon XL650 press and dies and I am sure that I could use a powder-through expander-type die to flare the case mouth, the same way it does with my 9mm pistol loads.

I just purchased the Lee press to have as a dedicated cast bullet resizing station.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.
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popper
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Re: Please help a casting noob

Post by popper »

Shoot some factory supers, measure neck thickness and neck OD. See what will chamber. Size accordingly. You can open up the Lee but can't make it smaller. Get some cast, load dummy's and check fit in throat, seating depth, etc.
Chandler729
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Re: Please help a casting noob

Post by Chandler729 »

StanCT wrote:Thank you for all the pointers in your considered, detailed response. This helps a lot.

Thusfar, I have a reliable but slow supply of motorcycle stick-on wheel weights & batteries. Due to the associated chemical hazards, I am only utilizing the battery terminals and connector strips between the cells, not the actual plates from within the cells.

I heed your poisoning concerns and use disposable nitrile rubber gloves and a good quality breathing filter at all times when handling, melting & pouring. I plan to have myself annually medically tested for lead exposure. I am nearly 50 and don't plan to reproduce :) nor have kids in the home.

You are the second person that has sung praises for Accurate molds, so will be looking at them.

I liked the look of the NOE HTC310-247-FN-BO3 RG2 cavity PB because of the hollow point, which some guys seem to be getting good expansion results from.

I was also concerned about lead contamination of rifle & suppressor, so will most certainly only be feeding it powder coated bullets.

I hear what you say about casting and coating vs just buying the bullets, which does seem so much more of a short cut. I guess it's also a time vs money debate.

I currently have a Dillon XL650 press and dies and I am sure that I could use a powder-through expander-type die to flare the case mouth, the same way it does with my 9mm pistol loads.

I just purchased the Lee press to have as a dedicated cast bullet resizing station.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.
I use a 650 also and i use the 30 carbine powder funnel. Works great.
StanCT
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:02 pm
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Re: Please help a casting noob

Post by StanCT »

popper wrote:Shoot some factory supers, measure neck thickness and neck OD. See what will chamber. Size accordingly. You can open up the Lee but can't make it smaller. Get some cast, load dummy's and check fit in throat, seating depth, etc.
Thanks popper, so i subtract twice the neck wall thickness from the neck OD, to get the correct bullet sizing dimension? Why not just measure the case mouth ID?
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