Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

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plant.one
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by plant.one » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:38 pm

and use your chrono!

stop playing guessing games and let the data drive your decisions.
Reloading info shared is based on experiences w/ my guns. Be safe and work up your loads from published data. Web data may not be accurate/safe.
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MountainmanID
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by MountainmanID » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:53 pm

dellet wrote:I’m not known for sugar coating things, so here goes.

In all honesty, you have set yourself up for failure, and chasing your tail in a never ending circle.

You have a suppressor of questionable manufacture. Give it a chance before you start modifying it.

You have a bullet that any one who has tried it, needed a fair amount of load development to get reasonable results. It will work well enough in the bolt action, but might be tougher in the AR. It’s not an easy bullet to work with if you want MOA groups.

You chose a powder that in all honesty is crap for reduced loads. There is just no other way to put it, it’s your weakest link.

Get a decent bullet and powder combination to make sure your suppressor is working like it should.

Then if you want to play with the Rainier bullet, get a different powder.

Then if you want to work with CFE, get a bullet that you can get some compression on the powder.

Some of the best learning comes from working problems out on your own, but the most reliable thing in your list of possible issues, is your suppressor. The mounts may be an issue, your groups tightening up with the Ruger, indicate the suppressor itself is probably ok.

Get an MOA load with you bolt action without the suppressor, then mount the can and see what happens. Until then you’re just asking for frustration.
What powder do you recommend? Been playing with A1680 for a while with the Lee Cast BLK mold with intermittent success, just saw the CFE BLK a year or so ago at Cabelas and bought 5 lbs thinking it might actually be optimized for 300BLK subsonic as advertised. It seems to be very similar to A1680 in terms of charge vs. projectile weight vs. velocity, but perhaps isn't happy not being compressed.

Haven't played with Unique yet but that seems to get good reviews on quiet and consistent in bolt guns. Trailboss has been hit and miss in all my non-auto suppressed guns, from .44 Mag to 6.5grendel throwing 160's from a bolt gun.

I put the recently "re-wetted" can on the 28" .260 Rem savage (123gr AMAX over 43.5gr A4350) I built last year and got identical 1.5" groups at 200 yds with the can on, and without. With the 120gr AMAX that rifle would shoot half MOA at 200 yds but they mustve discontinued that bullet in favor of all the sexy ELD-X bullets because I can't find the straight AMAX anywhere. Obviously a much smaller projectile, but the can seemed to have zero effect on POI or group size.

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plant.one
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by plant.one » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:23 pm

the ELD-X is a hunting bullet - its a completely new bullet. so you're correct that its very much a different animal than the old amax.

however, hornady does not show a 123gr ELD-X bullet on their website @ .264. there's a 123gr SST (#26173) and the 123gr ELD-M (#26176).

the only ELD-X bullet i see in .264 dia is a 143gr (#2635)



the ELD-M is the old AMAX bullet with the new "heat shield" tip on it. according to hornady - its the same copper/lead bullet with the new tip - just the tip and all that :mrgreen:

from my inquiry about load data for the new ELD-M shortly after they were released
Image


so your 123gr amax load should be able to be re-worked with extemely similar results without much tinkering with the 123gr ELD-M

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/6 ... -eld-match#!/

HTH
Reloading info shared is based on experiences w/ my guns. Be safe and work up your loads from published data. Web data may not be accurate/safe.
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MountainmanID
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by MountainmanID » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:04 pm

plant.one wrote:the ELD-X is a hunting bullet - its a completely new bullet. so you're correct that its very much a different animal than the old amax.

however, hornady does not show a 123gr ELD-X bullet on their website @ .264. there's a 123gr SST (#26173) and the 123gr ELD-M (#26176).

the only ELD-X bullet i see in .264 dia is a 143gr (#2635)



the ELD-M is the old AMAX bullet with the new "heat shield" tip on it. according to hornady - its the same copper/lead bullet with the new tip - just the tip and all that :mrgreen:

from my inquiry about load data for the new ELD-M shortly after they were released
Image


so your 123gr amax load should be able to be re-worked with extemely similar results without much tinkering with the 123gr ELD-M

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/6 ... -eld-match#!/

HTH
Just the tip huh? Heard that before major disappointments in the past....

So a 120 ELD-M or 140 ELD-M should shoot very close to my old recipes for 120 and 140 AMAX....

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dellet
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by dellet » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:10 pm

MountainmanID wrote:
dellet wrote:I’m not known for sugar coating things, so here goes.

In all honesty, you have set yourself up for failure, and chasing your tail in a never ending circle.

You have a suppressor of questionable manufacture. Give it a chance before you start modifying it.

You have a bullet that any one who has tried it, needed a fair amount of load development to get reasonable results. It will work well enough in the bolt action, but might be tougher in the AR. It’s not an easy bullet to work with if you want MOA groups.

You chose a powder that in all honesty is crap for reduced loads. There is just no other way to put it, it’s your weakest link.

Get a decent bullet and powder combination to make sure your suppressor is working like it should.

Then if you want to play with the Rainier bullet, get a different powder.

Then if you want to work with CFE, get a bullet that you can get some compression on the powder.

Some of the best learning comes from working problems out on your own, but the most reliable thing in your list of possible issues, is your suppressor. The mounts may be an issue, your groups tightening up with the Ruger, indicate the suppressor itself is probably ok.

Get an MOA load with you bolt action without the suppressor, then mount the can and see what happens. Until then you’re just asking for frustration.
What powder do you recommend? Been playing with A1680 for a while with the Lee Cast BLK mold with intermittent success, just saw the CFE BLK a year or so ago at Cabelas and bought 5 lbs thinking it might actually be optimized for 300BLK subsonic as advertised. It seems to be very similar to A1680 in terms of charge vs. projectile weight vs. velocity, but perhaps isn't happy not being compressed.

Haven't played with Unique yet but that seems to get good reviews on quiet and consistent in bolt guns. Trailboss has been hit and miss in all my non-auto suppressed guns, from .44 Mag to 6.5grendel throwing 160's from a bolt gun.

I put the recently "re-wetted" can on the 28" .260 Rem savage (123gr AMAX over 43.5gr A4350) I built last year and got identical 1.5" groups at 200 yds with the can on, and without. With the 120gr AMAX that rifle would shoot half MOA at 200 yds but they mustve discontinued that bullet in favor of all the sexy ELD-X bullets because I can't find the straight AMAX anywhere. Obviously a much smaller projectile, but the can seemed to have zero effect on POI or group size.
If you have 1680 try it. And or bump the CFE up to 12 grains and see if it stabilizes that bullet.

Since it does not interfere on the other rifle, I lean toward mounts, but that Rainier is not the best and that is also different in the other rifle.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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plant.one
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by plant.one » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:17 pm

MountainmanID wrote:
Just the tip huh? Heard that before major disappointments in the past....

So a 120 ELD-M or 140 ELD-M should shoot very close to my old recipes for 120 and 140 AMAX....

thats the theory anyway. buy a box and give them a try - its the only way you'll know for sure. :)

who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised by the results
Reloading info shared is based on experiences w/ my guns. Be safe and work up your loads from published data. Web data may not be accurate/safe.
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golfindia
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by golfindia » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:48 pm

MountainmanID wrote:The can has 6 baffles, with the clip holes oriented every 2 hours around the clock from the barrel end to the supp end when re-assembled.
I missed this part.
Staggering clips like this will destroy accuracy and make a wobbly bullet wobblier. It will be quieter, though.
Line the clips up, or leave first and last cone unclipped.

What material is the OP can made of?

MountainmanID
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by MountainmanID » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:27 pm

golfindia wrote:
MountainmanID wrote:The can has 6 baffles, with the clip holes oriented every 2 hours around the clock from the barrel end to the supp end when re-assembled.
I missed this part.
Staggering clips like this will destroy accuracy and make a wobbly bullet wobblier. It will be quieter, though.
Line the clips up, or leave first and last cone unclipped.

What material is the OP can made of?
6061 alum. for the tube (.135" thick), 6061 for the Cone baffles min. thickness anywhere around .100", and 7075 for the end caps. Barrel mount cap has about .650" of thread on the 5/8-24 threading, and the Barrel cap is also solid so its a big chunk of aluminum. The Front end cap has .240" thickness at the bore, and about .875 length" of external threading on the outside to thread into the tube body. Barrel cap has a similiar length of thread. I'm beginning the clipping would have worked fine on a pistol can with a booster, but was a mistake on a direct thread rifle can.

I've played with quite a few configurations of the clipping and for the most part just wish I hadn't done it. Some type of JB weld type stuff will be used to fill the clips and also create a bit of a lip on the cone entrance hole to try to split off gasses better.

Say, hypothetically, you had gotten an approved Form 1 to build a .30 caliber can that measured 8" long. No mention of diameter on the approved Form 1.

Now, If I wanted to instead build a 2x10" (possibly .45 cal) can, and hadn't started building the 8" long can, Can the Form 1 be edited like we used to do on Form 4 SBRs to include additional calibers and lengths? It used to be a simple letter to Needy Rd. to ammend a Form 4 to change information, as long as the change didn't change the type of NFA weapon (I.E. turning a AOW into a SBS.) And they would send you an updated form with a note where the stamp goes to see the original approved Form 1. I imagine more than one of you has an approved form 1 or two laying around waiting to be manufactured and you may have changed your mind on exactly what you wanted.

Just a hypothetical question.

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John A.
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Re: Form 1 can doing strange things.....180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by John A. » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am

MountainmanID wrote: 6061 alum. for the tube (.135" thick), 6061 for the Cone baffles min. thickness anywhere around .100", and 7075 for the end caps.

I'm beginning the clipping would have worked fine on a pistol can with a booster, but was a mistake on a direct thread rifle can.

I've played with quite a few configurations of the clipping and for the most part just wish I hadn't done it. Some type of JB weld type stuff will be used to fill the clips and also create a bit of a lip on the cone entrance hole to try to split off gasses better.

Say, hypothetically, you had gotten an approved Form 1 to build a .30 caliber can that measured 8" long. No mention of diameter on the approved Form 1.

Now, If I wanted to instead build a 2x10" (possibly .45 cal) can, and hadn't started building the 8" long can, Can the Form 1 be edited like we used to do on Form 4 SBRs to include additional calibers and lengths? It used to be a simple letter to Needy Rd. to ammend a Form 4 to change information, as long as the change didn't change the type of NFA weapon (I.E. turning a AOW into a SBS.) And they would send you an updated form with a note where the stamp goes to see the original approved Form 1. I imagine more than one of you has an approved form 1 or two laying around waiting to be manufactured and you may have changed your mind on exactly what you wanted.

Just a hypothetical question.
.135 wall is super thick. From a technical standpoint, it would have made more sense to have made the baffles out of 7075 and the front endcap out of 6061. 7075 is stronger and better for the rear cap where the threads are concerned, but unnecessary for the front cap.

I'm not sure if jb weld is a good idea. I'm thinking mostly no. Last thing I would want is the jb weld letting go and a big fat flake of it flopping around blocking a baffle bore while I'm shooting. That seems more of a disaster waiting to happen. And I'm not really sure that you can make repairs to the can once it is complete and you've used it.

If it's bugging you that bad, there are plenty of companies who will recore it for you. And do it correctly.

And with baffles that are a lot better than those solvent trap cones. A lot of folks buy the solvent trap "kits" because it's easy and they lack experience and tools to do one properly. But they are mostly only mediocre at best. I say that not to insult anyone, but because it's true. There are better baffle types out there for certain things. It's pretty well known that certain baffles work better for certain guns or calibers. But a lot of people don't really know that or take the time to research it up front. Then add in they have high expectations and delusions of grandeur, and it often leads to disappointment. They just see a solvent trap as an easy way to make a suppressor.

While true that you can use a solvent trap to modify in a way to muffle the sound of the gun shot some, it works better for some guns/calibers than they do for others. That is just brutal honesty and I do not mean any malice towards anyone when I say it.

If you have another stamp that truly hasn't been started, call nfa branch and ask them if you can amend it prior to making it. They may tell you that you can. I don't know the answer to that and I don't want to speculate. But if they tell you that you can amend it so it could be longer or another caliber, I would be interested in learning that for myself.

But if the can is already made and you don't like the way it sounds and you just want to scrap it and do another, ATF wouldn't go for that. I'm 100% certain of that. They would look at that as illegally manufacturing silencers and silencer parts. And each part of the can would be a silencer in and of itself. If there are 10 pieces to that silencer, they can charge you with 10 felony counts. It's not worth that. Just have it recored by a manufacturer and grow old and watch your grandkids play in the park, rather than worrying about dropping the soap in the showers of club fed.
When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.

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Form 1 can doing strange things 180 Rain Wedge CFEBLK

Post by Marvinham » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:42 am

Last week I quickly read a suppressor review in a magazine, and I can’t find the magazine again.

What I remember fairly well:
-22LR but also 5.7 compatible
-Under 6” maybe even shorter than 5”
-200 or 250
-Magazine said it was the quietest suppressor they had heard in a long time
-It is not the SilencerCo Osprey Micro

Vaguely remember it as a magazine affiliated with Shotgun News, and there may have been a guy on the cover - but I could be wrong about one or both of these things.

Anyone know what review this is?

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