Has anyone ever been asked to show their stamps?

[thisguysguns]

I've only been asked by a range officer once, but it wasn't because he was being overzealous. He asked to see my tax stamp because he'd never seen one before. I don't keep a physical copy with me at all times, but I do have a digital copy on my phone 24/7. Some people are a little weird about that, however, if the ATF is perfectly fine sending digital copies of approved form 1s directly to my hotmail account, I feel like I'm safe presenting a digital copy if asked. It's a lot easier than toting around a binder full of tax stamps whenever I go to the range.

Had an interesting conversation about this with a lawyer in a gun shop. His (free) advice - feel free to keep the digital copy on your phone, BUT DO NOT use that as a basis of proof. The reason was simple and had nothing to do with it being legal or not; if you hand your phone over to law enforcement, it is equivalent to inviting them into your house. Illegal search and seizure no longer applies, and the digital device can be taken from you and used against you in a court of law.

Instead, I now print them out double sided, 4 or more to a side (ie, reduced in size). This should be sufficient proof of legality and they can keep those copies. Did the same thing with the trust...

But no, I've never been asked by Law Enforcement to surrender my NFA documents, to include Form 20s.

WHOA! That is quality information to know! I had no idea... I'm not sure what they would use it against me for... Just going to find stupid meme pictures on my phone... and maybe search histories for dirty videos.

[steven11b]

I've only been asked by a range officer once, but it wasn't because he was being overzealous. He asked to see my tax stamp because he'd never seen one before. I don't keep a physical copy with me at all times, but I do have a digital copy on my phone 24/7. Some people are a little weird about that, however, if the ATF is perfectly fine sending digital copies of approved form 1s directly to my hotmail account, I feel like I'm safe presenting a digital copy if asked. It's a lot easier than toting around a binder full of tax stamps whenever I go to the range.

Had an interesting conversation about this with a lawyer in a gun shop. His (free) advice - feel free to keep the digital copy on your phone, BUT DO NOT use that as a basis of proof. The reason was simple and had nothing to do with it being legal or not; if you hand your phone over to law enforcement, it is equivalent to inviting them into your house. Illegal search and seizure no longer applies, and the digital device can be taken from you and used against you in a court of law.

Instead, I now print them out double sided, 4 or more to a side (ie, reduced in size). This should be sufficient proof of legality and they can keep those copies. Did the same thing with the trust...

But no, I've never been asked by Law Enforcement to surrender my NFA documents, to include Form 20s.

WHOA! That is quality information to know! I had no idea... I'm not sure what they would use it against me for... Just going to find stupid meme pictures on my phone... and maybe search histories for dirty videos.

Sith, that actually isnt totally true. You can show them your phone or your house and instruct any leo of what exactly they can look at. And at anytime you are uncomfortable you can revoke their privilege at anytime.

The phone rules specifically have been recently ruled in the supreme court that law enforcement must have a warrant to search one without your permission and therefor cannot be seized without a warrant.

[Sithlord]

Had an interesting conversation about this with a lawyer in a gun shop. His (free) advice - feel free to keep the digital copy on your phone, BUT DO NOT use that as a basis of proof. The reason was simple and had nothing to do with it being legal or not; if you hand your phone over to law enforcement, it is equivalent to inviting them into your house. Illegal search and seizure no longer applies, and the digital device can be taken from you and used against you in a court of law.

Instead, I now print them out double sided, 4 or more to a side (ie, reduced in size). This should be sufficient proof of legality and they can keep those copies. Did the same thing with the trust...

But no, I've never been asked by Law Enforcement to surrender my NFA documents, to include Form 20s.

WHOA! That is quality information to know! I had no idea... I'm not sure what they would use it against me for... Just going to find stupid meme pictures on my phone... and maybe search histories for dirty videos.

Sith, that actually isnt totally true. You can show them your phone or your house and instruct any leo of what exactly they can look at. And at anytime you are uncomfortable you can revoke their privilege at anytime.

The phone rules specifically have been recently ruled in the supreme court that law enforcement must have a warrant to search one without your permission and therefor cannot be seized without a warrant.

I am sure that you are correct. I am not a lawyer, so please take this with a grain of salt.

The courts have also upheld that if LE is able to see something illegal through a window of your house, from a public place, such as a street, then it is NOT an illegal search, and they can use that to get a warrant, and arrest you on probable cause. The same thing holds with inviting LE into your house - you are GRANTING THEM permission. If they see something while inside, they can arrest you with probable cause, then get a warrant...

As far as the phone goes.... If LE asks to see your papers, and you hand them the phone, you are granting them permission, again, by proxy. Imagine a scenario where you are asked to produce your Form 4. You do so by handing them your phone. They indicate that it's registered to a trust, they want to see your trust documents. You don't have them, or you don't have the Form 20, or some other piece of information. They take you into custody for probable cause. And since you handed them your phone, it is now EVIDENCE. You don't get it back until the matter is resolved. In the mean time, they go get a court order, easy since they have probable cause.

Another example... Years ago I was working with some folks and they were worried about court-ordered discoveries. We told them, no big deal, everything electronic in the system is easily searchable, no big deal. Their response - with discovery, you want to make it as HARD as possible for your opponent to search/discover. That's at least one reason why law offices (and all law shows) have paralegals going through stacks of paper.

Electronics make it EASY for YOU. In a litigation, you want it to be HARD for your opposition.

What you do is your business. I don't feel that I have anything to hide on my phone.. But it has contacts, accounts, etc. Supposedly the average American commits 3 felonies PER DAY. We can all be keyboard lawyers up until we need an actual lawyer.

[afshirt]

Got asked once. I told them that I have read their range rules and nothing in the rules allow them to ask for NFA paperwork for me to use the range and since ATF rules are only agents can ask I would like to talk to the Chief RSO about his ROs stepping outside their authority.

[HotGuns]

Its a TAX STAMP.

Local LEO's have no jurisdiction, although some of them don't know that.

Its would be no different than an IRS Agent asking you for your Drivers License.

Technically, only a BATFE agent has the legal authority to even ask to see a stamp.

With that being said, if you get some cop that insists on seeing it, you have two choices. You can tell him to pound sand, maybe go to jail, spend a few thousand dollars to to hire a lawyer and sue for false arrest (and you will win)...or you can let the knot head see it and go on about your way. Your choice. You will not win an argument with a cop on the side of the street.

Also, as a matter of policy some ranges insist on seeing the paperwork just to cover their tails. If you refuse to show, they have every right to deny you use of the range. If you want to shoot, you're best off just showing it to them. Do that several times and they'll quit asking once they know you.

I had a heated discussion with an Police LT from a large dept who told me he would arrest anyone with a silencer that did not have the paperwork. I told him that it would be a false arrest, since it was a legal tax document issue by the Federal Government. He said he had the authority. I asked him to show it to me. So he looked, and he looked and he looked some more. He could not find any because he did not have any.

I have trained several police depts. over the years on NFA stuff. Unless they happen to own some NFA stuff, (some do) they generally don't have a clue what the laws are that deal with such. In this area, they know that if they see numbers on a can, then its generally legit. If they happen to see some thing that they think is illegal, then they know to call the BATFE to clarify and they generally hand that part of the case to them. It keeps everyone legal and lets the experts determine what is legit and what isnt.

[DoubleJ]

Never had anyone ask, but my range is semi-private, so very few people actually see my stuff. I do carry copies, originals in the safe, just in case. It's my understanding that local LE isn't even supposed to ask, as NFA stuff is out of their jurisdiction, but if one did, I'd be more than happy to share some knowledge with him, show him that we're not bad guys or assassins or whatever. Of course, I'm sure some F/A rat-a-tat-tat probably draws more attention than pew-ding. I'd best most of the shooters around me aren't even placing the sound they're hearing, if they hear it all through their muffs.

Several people on occasion have shot with bump fire stocks, nobody thinks anything about it, I never have but once you get the hang of it you can empty a 30 round mag very quickly. that is when I pick up lots of range brass to reform.

I actually just got a bump fire stock for my 10/22, and yeah, about 3 magazines in you figure it out and can dump 25rds almost before you get settled in.

Interesting thing happened yesterday pertaining to suppressors, I took a guy from work shooting so he could get the feel for ARs prior to getting his first one. He found my Leonidas to be almost an every day thing, other than the lack of noise. He was taken aback a bit by my Tirant though, thought it was illegal. Didn't say a word about my SBR, didn't even know it was a thing until I explained all the NFA stuff to him. On the way home I found out he was in Desert Storm. Having not served, I guess I'm not totally clear on what people do in the military. He was a tech of some sort. I guess in my head everyone that enlists is Jesse Ventura in Predator.

[avant4me]

I went shooting at the NRA HQ building in VA with my FORM 1 suppressor and nobody even showed remote interest in my tax stamp.

However they were completely confused when I told them it was basically a maglite and that no I wasn't shooting a 22 but a 30cal

[Aggie]

I've been asked at 2 ranges, the first one tried to lecture me on a dash - in the paperwork...I told them it was approved by batfe so obviously they didn't have an issue with it. I've not been back to it.

Second range asked me the first time only because I asked if they needed (knowing some ranges can be jerks about it). After that, now I don't even tell them, the RSO's usually stop by my bench and chat but that's it.