Do I Need A Lower ?

[ProdigalSun]

Oh I was under the impression that if I got the trust done before the July 16 deadline, that I would not have to be printed and photographed at all.

[jonny4523]

Oh I was under the impression that if I got the trust done before the July 16 deadline, that I would not have to be printed and photographed at all.

You don't for the trust itself, but you'll have to when purchasing NFA items after 41P goes into effect.

[ProdigalSun]

Doesnt seem like doing the trust early was of any real benefit.

[jonny4523]

Doesnt seem like doing the trust early was of any real benefit.

It still has a lot of benefit. Don't get me wrong. It's still a legal entity that protects my wife should anything happen to me. And if you get it created now, while there is still plenty of time to add stuff to it, it still makes things easy and relatively simple.

Someone mentioned earlier that a set of fingerprints and photographs were good for two years. I guess I had initially read that wrong. But if that's the case, then it wouldn't be AS big of a hassle. You just have to bug everyone in your trust once every two years? I was thinking that the verbiage in 41P said something like 'if you've had an approved item within the last two years, you do not need to submit new photographs or fingerprints'. So does that mean that if you buy something once a year, then you don't have to get them done again?

[Sithlord]

There are many reasons for having an NFA gun trust. Prior to 41F (41P no longer exists), trusts were one way to circumvent the CLEO signoff required to obtain an NFA item. As 41F does away with CLEO signoff and turns it into CLEO notification, this reason is no longer relevant.

The misconception that NFA items cannot be 'transfered' upon death was another reason people used trusts - it gave a clear list of beneficiaries. However, even if an NFA item is owned by an individual, it can be transferred upon death without incurring a $200 tax.

Some would say that these two items, by themselves, are 90% of why people were getting trusts, and this is the 'loophole' that 41F is trying to close.

For me, my wife and family are firearms enthusiasts. We have become stamp collectors, and equally share in all of the NFA items. We do not have to have separate safes/locks to keep our NFA items safe from our GCA items. This would not be possible without a trust, LLC or corporation. With a trust, there are no annual 'dues' or taxes that have to be filed.

For me, the lack of CLEO signoff was just a bonus.

As far as the 2 year rule... You do NOT have to get fingerprinted every two years. You have to get fingerprinted every time that you want to procure a new NFA item (via a Form 1 or Form 4). IF you have procured an NFA item in the previous 24 months AND you submitted fingerprints with that submission AND the 'responsible persons' list in your TRUST is unchanged, you may reference the registered serial number of the previous NFA item IN LIEU OF submitting fingerprints. Fingerprint requirements are only triggered upon submission of new Form 1 or Form 4s. They are NOT triggered by changes to your trust or time. This is part of the language of 41F, which will not take affect until July, 2016.

Form 1 and Form 4 submissions which are POSTMARKED (not received, check cashed, etc.... BUT MAILED and POSTAGE CANCELLED) prior to the day it takes affect are automatically grandfathered in (ie, individual submissions require CLEO signoff. Responsible persons in a trust do not require fingerprints, no CLEO notification required).

[golfindia]

Doesnt seem like doing the trust early was of any real benefit.

See page 1 of this thread.....

[jonny4523]

There are many reasons for having an NFA gun trust. Prior to 41F (41P no longer exists), trusts were one way to circumvent the CLEO signoff required to obtain an NFA item. As 41F does away with CLEO signoff and turns it into CLEO notification, this reason is no longer relevant.

The misconception that NFA items cannot be 'transfered' upon death was another reason people used trusts - it gave a clear list of beneficiaries. However, even if an NFA item is owned by an individual, it can be transferred upon death without incurring a $200 tax.

Some would say that these two items, by themselves, are 90% of why people were getting trusts, and this is the 'loophole' that 41F is trying to close.

For me, my wife and family are firearms enthusiasts. We have become stamp collectors, and equally share in all of the NFA items. We do not have to have separate safes/locks to keep our NFA items safe from our GCA items. This would not be possible without a trust, LLC or corporation. With a trust, there are no annual 'dues' or taxes that have to be filed.

For me, the lack of CLEO signoff was just a bonus.

As far as the 2 year rule... You do NOT have to get fingerprinted every two years. You have to get fingerprinted every time that you want to procure a new NFA item (via a Form 1 or Form 4). IF you have procured an NFA item in the previous 24 months AND you submitted fingerprints with that submission AND the 'responsible persons' list in your TRUST is unchanged, you may reference the registered serial number of the previous NFA item IN LIEU OF submitting fingerprints. Fingerprint requirements are only triggered upon submission of new Form 1 or Form 4s. They are NOT triggered by changes to your trust or time. This is part of the language of 41F, which will not take affect until July, 2016.

Form 1 and Form 4 submissions which are POSTMARKED (not received, check cashed, etc.... BUT MAILED and POSTAGE CANCELLED) prior to the day it takes affect are automatically grandfathered in (ie, individual submissions require CLEO signoff. Responsible persons in a trust do not require fingerprints, no CLEO notification required).

Sith, so let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. Say I have an item approved in May 2016. I want to submit either a Form 1 or a Form 4 at the end of July 2016. Even though I had an approval only a month prior, fingerprints and photographs are still mandatory because that earlier approval did not include them, correct? So either way, your 1st NFA acquisition post the July 2016 date will require fingerprints and photographs?

I also assume that the serial number you are referencing in lieu of finger prints must have had fingerprints submitted for that item, so that you can not reference a serial number which also had referenced a serial number before it? In other words, if you have an approval that required fingerprints, you can use that serial number to reference against for 2 years, at which time you'd be forced to get new finger prints and photographs because any other items acquired during that time were referencing the first item? Of course, this is assuming no changes in RPs.

Hopefully that garbled mess made sense. I'll also be interested to see how all of this will change eforms.

[smustian]

Sith, so let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. Say I have an item approved in May 2016. I want to submit either a Form 1 or a Form 4 at the end of July 2016. Even though I had an approval only a month prior, fingerprints and photographs are still mandatory because that earlier approval did not include them, correct? So either way, your 1st NFA acquisition post the July 2016 date will require fingerprints and photographs?

I also assume that the serial number you are referencing in lieu of finger prints must have had fingerprints submitted for that item, so that you can not reference a serial number which also had referenced a serial number before it? In other words, if you have an approval that required fingerprints, you can use that serial number to reference against for 2 years, at which time you'd be forced to get new finger prints and photographs because any other items acquired during that time were referencing the first item? Of course, this is assuming no changes in RPs.

Hopefully that garbled mess made sense. I'll also be interested to see how all of this will change eforms.

Correct. Example: You submit a Form 1 on Jun 25, 2016 no prints/photos required. You submit a Form1 on Jul 15, 2016 prints and photos required because it is after Jul 13. You submit Form 1 on Jul 15, 2017 you reference Jul 15, 2016 submission. You submit Form 1 on Jul 15, 2018 new prints/photos required because it has been 2 years then those can be reference for 2 years.

[Kanook]

This is from Silencershop,

What Does The 2-Year Exemption Actually Mean?
The 2-year exemption has been a source of debate, but the ATF clarified that it does NOT apply to fingerprints or passport photos – which is kind of a bummer.

Basically, they’re interpreting the rule to mean you don’t have to send a copy of your trust if it hasn’t changed; but, the other requirements ALWAYS apply, even if you’ve received a recent approval.

http://blog.silencershop.com/details-atf-41f/

[smustian]

This is from Silencershop,

What Does The 2-Year Exemption Actually Mean?
The 2-year exemption has been a source of debate, but the ATF clarified that it does NOT apply to fingerprints or passport photos – which is kind of a bummer.

Basically, they’re interpreting the rule to mean you don’t have to send a copy of your trust if it hasn’t changed; but, the other requirements ALWAYS apply, even if you’ve received a recent approval.

http://blog.silencershop.com/details-atf-41f/

Have a link to this interpretation from the ATF? I ask because the Silencershop statement is contrary to what I have seen several lawyers state what the new ruling entails.