SBR question......

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rb288
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SBR question......

Post by rb288 »

I have a "newbie" sbr question, so please bear with me.
I don't have a shortbarrel upper yet, but can I do a form 1 on one of my other lowers, converting it to a sbr, and continue to use a full length upper until I get a sbr upper for it?
It is my understanding that an sbr lower can use any upper as long as it can be returned to the sbr status with a short barrel upper. Is this correct?
Thanks for any advice.
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Dystaxia
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Re: SBR question......

Post by Dystaxia »

rb288 wrote:I have a "newbie" sbr question, so please bear with me.
I don't have a shortbarrel upper yet, but can I do a form 1 on one of my other lowers, converting it to a sbr, and continue to use a full length upper until I get a sbr upper for it?
It is my understanding that an sbr lower can use any upper as long as it can be returned to the sbr status with a short barrel upper. Is this correct?
Thanks for any advice.
Yes
jryock
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Re: SBR question......

Post by jryock »

What Dystaxia said ^

I would add that you should get the lower engraved before it is officially dubbed an NFA item. This is especially true if you plan to ship it out or don't have a local engraver that will let you hang out while the work is done.
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Sithlord
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Re: SBR question......

Post by Sithlord »

rb288 wrote:I have a "newbie" sbr question, so please bear with me.
I don't have a shortbarrel upper yet, but can I do a form 1 on one of my other lowers, converting it to a sbr, and continue to use a full length upper until I get a sbr upper for it?
It is my understanding that an sbr lower can use any upper as long as it can be returned to the sbr status with a short barrel upper. Is this correct?
Thanks for any advice.
This is NOT an official requirement for an SBR [returning to an SBR status, to include the barrel length and caliber that was registered].

Form 1 your lower. Engrave it with your trust (or other maker's mark). Once you have these items in hand (stamp and engraved lower), put whatever upper you want. ATF requests notification, but no notification is required by LAW, even if the configuration changes are permanent. If you choose to sell your SBR with the short barrel, you will probably want to notify them that the barrel length and caliber are the 'new' permanent configuration. And then submit the Form 4 with the appropriate information.

NOTE: The moment your lower is registered as an SBR, it CANNOT leave your state WITHOUT PERMISSION from the ATF. That INCLUDES putting an upper with a 16" barrel on it. ATF has deemed that merely maintaining possession of a short barrelled upper means that putting an upper with a 16" or greater barrel DOES NOT (even temporarily) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA.

From their FAQ:
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?

A: Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

A: If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
To me, this is at odds with the following FAQ, specifically for states that do not allow hunting with an SBR. The previous questions "clearly" indicate that putting a long barrel on an NFA SBR does NOT (even temporarily) convert the firearm into a typical GCA firearm.
Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

A: Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.
[note, edited with corrections]
Last edited by Sithlord on Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
RDA
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Re: SBR question......

Post by RDA »

Sithlord wrote:
rb288 wrote:I have a "newbie" sbr question, so please bear with me.
I don't have a shortbarrel upper yet, but can I do a form 1 on one of my other lowers, converting it to a sbr, and continue to use a full length upper until I get a sbr upper for it?
It is my understanding that an sbr lower can use any upper as long as it can be returned to the sbr status with a short barrel upper. Is this correct?
Thanks for any advice.
This is NOT an official requirement for an SBR.

Form 1 your lower. Engrave it with your trust (or other manufacture mark).
MAKER (Not manufacture).
Sharkbite
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Re: SBR question......

Post by Sharkbite »

Sithlord wrote:
rb288 wrote:I have a "newbie" sbr question, so please bear with me.
I don't have a shortbarrel upper yet, but can I do a form 1 on one of my other lowers, converting it to a sbr, and continue to use a full length upper until I get a sbr upper for it?
It is my understanding that an sbr lower can use any upper as long as it can be returned to the sbr status with a short barrel upper. Is this correct?
Thanks for any advice.
This is NOT an official requirement for an SBR [returning to an SBR status, to include the barrel length and caliber that was registered].

Form 1 your lower. Engrave it with your trust (or other maker's mark). Once you have these items in hand (stamp and engraved lower), put whatever upper you want. ATF requests notification, but no notification is required by LAW, even if the configuration changes are permanent. If you choose to sell your SBR with the short barrel, you will probably want to notify them that the barrel length and caliber are the 'new' permanent configuration. And then submit the Form 4 with the appropriate information.

NOTE: The moment your lower is registered as an SBR, it CANNOT leave your state WITHOUT PERMISSION from the ATF. That INCLUDES putting an upper with a 16" barrel on it. ATF has deemed that merely maintaining possession of a short barrelled upper means that putting an upper with a 16" or greater barrel DOES NOT (even temporarily) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA.

From their FAQ:
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?

A: Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

A: If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
To me, this is at odds with the following FAQ, specifically for states that do not allow hunting with an SBR. The previous questions "clearly" indicate that putting a long barrel on an NFA SBR does NOT (even temporarily) convert the firearm into a typical GCA firearm.
Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

A: Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.
[note, edited with corrections]
You may turn you SBR into a non-SBR by installing a 16+" barrel. Travel anywhere that config is legal and the turn it back into an SBR when back in your home state.

What the provision above is saying is that you may not travel with the "short barrel" in you possession or " under your control".

So leave the short barrel at home. Travel with a 16"+ barrel ONLY.
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Sithlord
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Re: SBR question......

Post by Sithlord »

While I agree with you that is how it should be, the atf faq implies differently.

Ownership of a barrel less than 16" is maintaining control. You still own and control your house, car, etc when not using it.
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Re: SBR question......

Post by IMGrunt »

I lean towards Sharkbite's interpretation but also understand the 'control' aspect of Sithlord's response. Personally I think the question on the ATF website was intended to answer the question as to whether the SBR could be transported legally by just separating the lower from the upper. All conjecture on my part.
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Sharkbite
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Re: SBR question......

Post by Sharkbite »

Sithlord wrote:While I agree with you that is how it should be, the atf faq implies differently.

Ownership of a barrel less than 16" is maintaining control. You still own and control your house, car, etc when not using it.

I dont "maintain control" over my car (left at home) when in another state. Nor do i "maintain control" of my 9" upper when its at home in the safe and im in another state hunting or training with my 16" upper

As long as the NFA gun has a 16" barrel on it you are good to travel with it, just like any other firearm.
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Hoot Gibson
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Re: SBR question......

Post by Hoot Gibson »

Sharkbite wrote:
Sithlord wrote:While I agree with you that is how it should be, the atf faq implies differently.

Ownership of a barrel less than 16" is maintaining control. You still own and control your house, car, etc when not using it.

I dont "maintain control" over my car (left at home) when in another state. Nor do i "maintain control" of my 9" upper when its at home in the safe and im in another state hunting or training with my 16" upper

As long as the NFA gun has a 16" barrel on it you are good to travel with it, just like any other firearm.
If you own it, you (legally) maintain control of it. These aren't common sense definitions, they're legal definitions. Yes, legally you maintain control of your car when you leave it at home, just as you maintain control of your house when you aren't there. If somebody takes your car when you're out of state, it's still stolen. I can't move into your house because you are on vacation.

Putting a 16" barrel on an SBR does not make it a non-SBR, otherwise you'd have to get re-register it to put the short barrel back on it. It is a bit unclear, since you don't have to take an SBR out of registry if you permanently install a long barrel, and there's probably no way to prosecute anyone for taking a long barreled SBR out of state, but that doesn't mean it's legal.

Sithlord, ATF doesn't care (or opine) about State hunting law. The question in the FAQ is 'can you put on a long barrel then restore the short barrel without re-registering.' The hunting (or other purposes) part of the question doesn't matter (to the ATF). That's up to the State, and depends on how that States law is written. Does it say that you can't use an SBR, or that the barrel has to be some minimum length? Or some other weird definition? It would take a lawyer in that State familiar with the details of the State law to advise on that.
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