What ATF Ruling 2011-4 Actually Says

[GSO]

There is another tread going that I don't want to derail, so I thought I'd address some issues here. Original thread:
viewtopic.php?f=136&t=86718

I believe there is some misleading and incorrect info in these posts. My comments are in red.

For reference, ATF Ruling 2011-4 can be found here:
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-ru ... 2011-4.pdf

Guys...

There is no "constructive intent" by using any buffer tube you want.
"A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length"

If you happen to have the pistol with a rifle or carbine buffer and a buttstock that fits in close proximity, but fail to have a barrel of 16" or more in close proximity, then you have created a firearm regulated by the NFA. If you don't have a tax stamp for this serial numbered receiver, you are in violation of the law. Will you be smart enough to ensure that have on hand all the pieces necessary to make a legal rifle? Yes, probably, but maybe not.
This has been beaten to death

1. BATF has put out a letter stating clearly that you may use any buffer tube you want on a pistol
Yes, but see above.
2. Even without that you are allowed by law to take your pistol, install a 16" barreled upper and then add a stock thus turning it into a rifle. You can go back and forth, pistol to rifle to pistol, whenever you like. You just cannot have the stock on with the short barrel
Also yes, but note that the receiver must not have been assembled into a rifle first. It must start as a pistol. I have a friend who has taken every receiver he's bought and built a pistol, taken a time stamped photo, and then made them into rifles. Then he can also turn any of them into pistols should he so desire.

An A2 buffer tube or a CAR buffer tube are perfectly fine on a pistol and simply allow this FULLY LEGAL transition.

Again, this statement is true with some qualifiers, i.e. it must start as a pistol and you must always have on hand the parts to make a complete rifle (not SBR). You may not intentionally violate the second condition, but using a carbine or rifle buffer does allow for unintentional violation. Say for example you get hit by a bus and your significant other or kids take the gun to the range not realizing the fine points of this, yes, very confusing law.

The issue of "constuctive intent" come into play when you have parts that have no other legal purpose except to make an illegal firearm. Example.. If i had a 14" barrel for my Bennili shotgun but no tax stamp for that. I would then have a problem with constructive intent

Another example would be i have a 10" AR upper, but only have a "rifle" lower. Now i only have the ability to use that upper to make an unregistered SBR

Good examples.

Keep in mind, if you put a 9" barrel on a lower with a Rifle length buffer tube, you have NOT made a pistol. Because your OAL will be greater than 27", by ATF definition you have constructed a "firearm". You will never be able to make that lower into a pistol in the future without a stamp. This may also have legal ramifications, depending on state laws that specify "pistol" and/or what your states definition of "pistol" "firearm" and "rifle" is.

Not sure where you came up with this definition of a "firearm." The only references I find relating to overall length of rifles or pistols is for those under 26 inches. Being less than 26 inches overall length makes a shoulder fired firearm a short-barreled rifle. However, the reverse is not necessarily true...being longer that 26 inches does not turn a pistol into a rifle, at least not according to any Federal definition that I can find. Your state laws may vary.

"A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle."


The upside is, as a "Firearm" you can put a VFG on it.

In the context of this ruling, "firearm" means one governed by the NFA. Something you don't want to do without a tax stamp. And I personally don't find vertical grips comfortable. I prefer angled or none.

IIRC the longest barrel you can put on a pistol with the A2-length buffer tube is about 8.5".

Again, I can't find the definition that turns a pistol into a rifle based on barrel length. I'd be interested if you can find a reference.

[mostholycerebus]

Im not really interested in finding references right now. Look it up if you really care. The short of it is, a "pistol" is defined as being "concealable" and AFT currently defines that as <26" OAL. A "rifle" is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder. BTW, so is a "shotgun". Something >26" OAL and not designed to be fired from shoulder isnt a "pistol" "rifle" or "shotgun". Thats why the XO26 and 14" mossberg 500w/birdshead grip are non-NFA. They are "firearms".

A SBS is a shotgun, which is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel under 18". A SBR is a rifle, which is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel under 16".

The weak point is currently, ATFs definition of 'concealable' is only a guideline that they can re-interpret at any time.

That should give you a start. I recommend anyone interested in building one of these do their own homework first. Its your but on the line. Plus, every state has its own legal nuances.

EDIT: BTW I came up with that 8.5" barrel by putting an A2 tube on my lower and measuring under 26" OAL. Not from a specific ATF ruling on barrel length. Mocking it up now, looks like I could get away with about 8 3/4" barrel before breaking 26". I would probably stop at 8 1/2" just to make it easy for any overzealous LEOs.

[Overton-AR]

The 26" rule only applies to "LESS THAN" it makes no references to "GREATER THAN".

1 - You can build a Colt Revolver with a 27" barrel and its still a pistol.
2 - You can build a rifle with a 16.1" barrel but if it is UNDER 26" then it is an NFA item.

[GSO]

Im not really interested in finding references right now. Look it up if you really care.
I'm pretty sure you won't find them. I've looked. The ball is in your court to show you aren't making this up.
The short of it is, a "pistol" is defined as being "concealable" and AFT currently defines that as <26" OAL.
Wrong. A pistol/handgun is:

According to both 18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(29) and 27 CFR § 478.11
"Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled."

There is no part of the definition that includes "concealable". The definition of an AOW (any other weapon) does include concealable.

A "rifle" is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder. BTW, so is a "shotgun". Something >26" OAL and not designed to be fired from shoulder isnt a "pistol" "rifle" or "shotgun". Thats why the XO26 and 14" mossberg 500w/birdshead grip are non-NFA. They are "firearms".

A SBS is a shotgun, which is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel under 18". A SBR is a rifle, which is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel under 16".

The weak point is currently, ATFs definition of 'concealable' is only a guideline that they can re-interpret at any time.

That should give you a start. I recommend anyone interested in building one of these do their own homework first. Its your but on the line. Plus, every state has its own legal nuances.

I recommend you do the same before posting unsubstantiated facts. I've shown you my reference documents. Again, your turn to show that your statements are in fact based on statute, administrative code, or federal ruling.

EDIT: BTW I came up with that 8.5" barrel by putting an A2 tube on my lower and measuring under 26" OAL. Not from a specific ATF ruling on barrel length. Mocking it up now, looks like I could get away with about 8 3/4" barrel before breaking 26". I would probably stop at 8 1/2" just to make it easy for any overzealous LEOs.

Take as much time as you need.

[Sharkbite]

Thanks for putting this in the proper thread

Your comments are exactly on point. My post ASSUMED the firearm in question started as a pistol and you had ALL the parts needed to make a legal rifle

You know about assuming things

[GSO]

Im not really interested in finding references right now. Look it up if you really care. The short of it is, a "pistol" is defined as being "concealable" and AFT currently defines that as <26" OAL. A "rifle" is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder. BTW, so is a "shotgun". Something >26" OAL and not designed to be fired from shoulder isnt a "pistol" "rifle" or "shotgun". Thats why the XO26 and 14" mossberg 500w/birdshead grip are non-NFA. They are "firearms".

A SBS is a shotgun, which is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel under 18". A SBR is a rifle, which is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel under 16".

The weak point is currently, ATFs definition of 'concealable' is only a guideline that they can re-interpret at any time.

That should give you a start. I recommend anyone interested in building one of these do their own homework first. Its your but on the line. Plus, every state has its own legal nuances.

EDIT: BTW I came up with that 8.5" barrel by putting an A2 tube on my lower and measuring under 26" OAL. Not from a specific ATF ruling on barrel length. Mocking it up now, looks like I could get away with about 8 3/4" barrel before breaking 26". I would probably stop at 8 1/2" just to make it easy for any overzealous LEOs.

Still waiting to see if you are interested in locating the reference that backs up your statement about pistols not being allowed to be longer than 26". Like I said, I can't find it and don't believe your statement is true.

[captainrick]

Great info here, Thanks. Ok what about, instead of a rifle, a pistol AR is made using the Sig Sauer Arm brace? Is there a thread on this?

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Here is the ATF letter discussing "firearms". This letter relates to a AR that is over 26" but without a shoulder stock. A shoulder stock is what defines a rifle.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

If a gun does not meet the definition of a "rifle", "shotgun" or "pistol" then by default it is a "firearm". And the only legal requirements for a "firearm" is that is must not be under 26" and it must not be hidden on your person. If the "firearm" is under 26" it is no longer a "firearm" and becomes a pistol. If you add a stock to a "firearm" it becomes either a "rifle" or "shotgun" depending on whether it has a rifle bore as well as bore size.

The ATF uses the term "firearm" all the time when describing a gun that does not meet any other criteria.

Additionally if a shotgun never left the factory with a shoulder stock it is NOT a shotgun by definition because, just like a rifle, a shoulder stock defines a shotgun. And because the pistol grip shotgun does not meet the definition of shotgun than it meets the definition of firearm. And because the only requirement for a a "firearm" is that is it 26" you can put whatever barrel length you want on the "firearm" as long as it meets 26". There are tons of examples of pistol grip shotguns with barrels less than 18" that the ATF said required to NFA registration. Here is one of those dozens of letters.

Plenty of rulings here:
http://www.openatf.com/rulings
Look at 2010-0187 and 2010-1005 for the ruling on a pistol grip shotgun with a barrel less than 18".
And BTW this is perfectly legal without NFA registration: