SBR Interstate transport

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golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:26 pm

I don't care if a local/state leo is trained in nuclear physics needlepoint and gracy jujitsu. Doesn't mean they are authorized to enforce federal laws.

BTW, you need to get an approved form 20 back before you can transport. "Faxing a form" isn't how it works.

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golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:44 pm

rebel wrote:He said as soon as he saw the engraved receiver, it would cause concern.
I don't understand how is this even a thing. Engraved with what? Gang symbols? What if it's not engraved with anything? Many have guns with no serial numbers, or engrave the nfa stuff on barrels. What happens when these cops don't see any serial number? How do they check to see if it's not an SBR? Do they make you take it apart to prove there's no serial numbers?

Bordering on the obsurd here.

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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sharkbite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:13 am

Bordering on the obsurd here
What is obsurd here is your complete lack of understanding of the NFA and how laws are enforced.

Let me explain how this would have worked in Nevada (where i worked as a Sheriffs deputy). Lets say i came across a rifle with a barrel shorter then 16” AND the person in possession did not (or would not) produce an approved form 1or4.

That person is in violation of a Nevada Statute that prohibits possession of that weapon, and would be arrested per that statute.

Hooked and booked. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Now, knowing what i know, if i saw the gun was engraved (as per NFA regs) AND the possessor refused to show a form 1 because he claimed some tax privacy, i would still hook him up and call BATFE.

As to your comment about a lawsuit...good luck. The possession of a SBR is illegal UNLESS certain conditions exist. If you refuse to show that is a legal firearm, you WILL be arrested. You may be able to show the DA or the court a form1 at a later date, but if you refuse in the field...you’re taking a ride

golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:15 am

Nevada. I asked where people lived a few posts ago.....

Nevada is a yucky state where the exception for SBR posession is specifically stated in law as "registered with the United States Department of the Treasury".

Many states have something similar to this "guns in violation of this statute which are lawfully possessed under provisions of federal law are excepted"

Like I said early on, educate yourself and make smart decisions based on the facts...... I'll never set foot in nevada.

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Flatliner
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Flatliner » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:25 am

At this point I feel a little bad for even posting the question. So, I'm filling a form 20. If it comes back I take the SBR, if not I use the AR10. I'm not the type to want to be a test case for anything and while I can find ATF confirmation that putting a16" upper on it makes it legal, I can find no such confirmation to my satisfaction on the pistol change. Besides, my SBR started life as an 80% and frankly has never been anything but an SBR. To put icing on the decision, the guy I'm hunting with IS a LEO so I have no desire to cause him any issues either.

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Sithlord
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sithlord » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:06 am

Sharkbite wrote:
Bordering on the obsurd here
What is obsurd here is your complete lack of understanding of the NFA and how laws are enforced.

Let me explain how this would have worked in Nevada (where i worked as a Sheriffs deputy). Lets say i came across a rifle with a barrel shorter then 16” AND the person in possession did not (or would not) produce an approved form 1or4.

That person is in violation of a Nevada Statute that prohibits possession of that weapon, and would be arrested per that statute.

Hooked and booked. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Now, knowing what i know, if i saw the gun was engraved (as per NFA regs) AND the possessor refused to show a form 1 because he claimed some tax privacy, i would still hook him up and call BATFE.

As to your comment about a lawsuit...good luck. The possession of a SBR is illegal UNLESS certain conditions exist. If you refuse to show that is a legal firearm, you WILL be arrested. You may be able to show the DA or the court a form1 at a later date, but if you refuse in the field...you’re taking a ride
IANAL.

People still have a 4th Amendment and a 5th Amendment rights you know. You going officer Barbrady on someone without probable cause for a malum prohibitum offense (not a crime against society) is the PROBLEM, and makes you an authoritative jerk with a badge. If you arrested me when I was in lawful possession and didn't provide you with the Form 1 / Form 4, I'd sue your department, and almost assuredly walk out with a fat payday.

In VA, Open Carry is legal without a "permit". LEO can't arrest you even if they receive calls from citizens. They can OBSERVE. If you are minding your own business, you're a lawful individual, exercising your 2nd Amendment Rights, and therefore NO PROBABLE CAUSE even to ask for ID. Police Departments learned this the HARD WAY - in court, and LOST.

If you arrested someone who had an SBR, and you could tell that the SBR was engraved [Form 1 only], AND the suspect indicated through light "interrogation" that they understood what a Form 1 or Form 4 was, then IMNSHO, you have absolutely NO PROBABLE CAUSE. Not when YOU, the LEO can likely call the ATF and "run the serial number" to check whether it's a registered NFA item, and who it is registered to (and compare that to the "suspects" ID).

The Form 1 or Form 4 is a TAX DOCUMENT. LE has as much RIGHT to see that tax document as they do my 1040 or W2 without a warrant - NONE, ZILCH, NADA.

Stop scaring people with your Gestapo tactics.

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thisguysguns
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by thisguysguns » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:05 pm

Flatliner wrote:At this point I feel a little bad for even posting the question. So, I'm filling a form 20. If it comes back I take the SBR, if not I use the AR10. I'm not the type to want to be a test case for anything and while I can find ATF confirmation that putting a16" upper on it makes it legal, I can find no such confirmation to my satisfaction on the pistol change. Besides, my SBR started life as an 80% and frankly has never been anything but an SBR. To put icing on the decision, the guy I'm hunting with IS a LEO so I have no desire to cause him any issues either.
Good plan. Good luck on the hunt!
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Sharkbite
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sharkbite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:28 pm

[quote]In VA, Open Carry is legal without a "permit". LEO can't arrest you even if they receive calls from citizens. They can OBSERVE. If you are minding your own business, you're a lawful individual, exercising your 2nd Amendment Rights, and therefore NO PROBABLE CAUSE even to ask for ID. Police Departments learned this the HARD WAY - in court, and LOST.[/quotep]
K
The LEGAL difference in the above is that open carry is LEGAL in Va. An SBR is ILLEGAL unless a form 1 or 4 has been approved.

Without that form being shown, how do i as the investigating officer know that..
A. There is even an approved form?
B. That the person in possession is a listed responsible party?
C. If engraved with a Trust name, it gets even tougher in the field.

No Gestapo tactics, just LAW ENFORCEMENT.

As for your “Tax document” line of reasoning...

Have you ever even seen an approved form 1? It is not an IRS doc. It doesent have your gross income or any other financial data on it

It is an “Application to make and register a firearm”. From the DOJ, not the IRS

You asked the Govt for permission to make a LEGALLY restricted firearm. The approved form is nothing more then a permission slip saying you are allowed to do so. The affixed “Stamp” is nothing more then a receipt showing you paid the tax to do so.

All of my form 1’s and 4’s show nothing personal except my name and the name of my Trust. The same name that is engraved on the receivers (as per NFA regs).

You can stand firm and not show anything is asked. Be prepared for that to not go well.

As for your lawsuit statement, i couldnt help but laugh. In the OP’s post he was going hunting and asked about 5320.20’s. So lets assume (since i was never a Fish and Game officer, but a Deputy) that i came across you and this SBR on a traffic stop and the rifle was in plain sight (cause you like to have it next to you as you drive, cause thats legal where you are)

In my other post i said i “came across” a SBR. I left it unsaid that i came across it legally. No 4th amendment infringement. My seeing a rifle with a barrel less then 16” give me all the Probable cause i need to investigate. SBR’s are illegal on their face. Only with affirmative action on your part may you possess one.

Sorry Brother, without you showing me that you MAY legally possess that RESTRICTED firearm. Youve got trouble.

I dont know what 5th amendment violation you are referring to above. Its pretty hard to violate someones 5th amendment during a roadside investigation and preliminary fact finding. You probable think you need to be Mirandized everytime a LEO talks to you.


Anyway, dont show a LEO anything...ever. No DL, no car ins, no CCW...nothing. Lets see how that works out for ya.

As a final statement, i dont like the NFA. I dont think it came into being correctly. I dont agree with the restrictions it imposes. BUT, i personally have a number of NFA items AND went through the process and paid the tax for each. That said, if i had come across an unregistered SBR/SBS/MG/AOW i would have made the arrest. If you cant/wont show me that its registered, i have to proceed as if its not.

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bangbangping
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by bangbangping » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:52 pm

Flatliner wrote:At this point I feel a little bad for even posting the question.
Don't. We needed a good argument to liven things up around here. :lol:

To what part of our great state are you heading?

Sharkbite
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sharkbite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:08 pm

We needed a good argument to liven things up around here. :lol:
Sorry Guys, it was not my intent to argue with anybody. The crazy legal advise i see about firearms issues sickens me.
To argue with a LEO on the side of the road and refuse a simple request to see the paper that makes it legal to possess something is STUPID.

LEO...“Oh, excuse me, i see you have a bottle of oxycodone here, show me the perscription for it.”
Subject...” No, that info is protected by HIPA. You dont have anything on me.”
LEO... “ I have handcuffs on you. Lets go”

Just DUMB

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