SBR Interstate transport

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John A.
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by John A. » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:44 pm

golfindia wrote: Because local/state game warden has zero authority to enforce federal NFA laws.
C'mon now.

If you think that an atf agent is the only person that can arrest someone for a firearm violation, I'm not sure what to say, other than that is demonstrably false.

And you don't have to be an ATF agent to run a serial number either.
When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.

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Sharkbite
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sharkbite » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:01 pm

You've been reading too many ATF opinion letters.
Maybe you should read more of them.

golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:02 pm

John A. wrote:
golfindia wrote: Because local/state game warden has zero authority to enforce federal NFA laws.
C'mon now.

If you think that an atf agent is the only person that can arrest someone for a firearm violation, I'm not sure what to say, other than that is demonstrably false.

And you don't have to be an ATF agent to run a serial number either.
Sheesh, where do you guys live? Cananda? California?

NO. Unless you just committed a crime, a local cop doesn't havr probable cause to arrest you for a firearm violation. Unless they are detaining you, just keep walking. Who are your game wardens calling to "run your serial numbers"? There is no 4473 database. That's all paper. A game warden can't run around calling ATF on people he passes in the woods.... Ridiculous.

What if I don't have a serial number? Sounds like some states are in serious need some gun law reforms. Or more people to stand up tp overreaching local LEOs.

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dellet
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by dellet » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:03 pm

golfindia wrote:
dellet wrote: I think if you had a pistol that had been registered as an SBR in your possession out of state, and Game Wardens called in the serial numbers, as they are apt to do at times. You might have some splaining to do.
The only explaining you need to do is to tell Mr warden he has no authority to review your serial numbers. And that he is welcome to call up the atf and ask them to do it.
Let me get this straight.

You modify your stamped, NFA registered SBR into a pistol so that you can transport it out of state without paper work required of an NFA item.

You are stopped by a Game warden to check licenses, magazine capacity and possibly even the cartridge compliance of your pistol, which is a perfectly normal and common interaction. He sees the manufacturer's information engraved on the receiver which gives him reasonable cause(which he did not need, since it was in plain view anyway) to check the serial number.

Your response is "you have no right to do that since my firearm is an NFA item, please call the ATF".

Sounds like a good way to spend your hunting time doing some 'splaining Lucy
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golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:11 pm

No. You still have it all wrong and the hypothetical situation is assinine.

But like I said. You are welcome to do whatever you think is correct. The more compliant citizens there are, the happier everyone will be.

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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sharkbite » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:25 pm

You are stopped by a Game warden to check licenses, magazine capacity and possibly even the cartridge compliance of your pistol, which is a perfectly normal and common interaction. He sees the manufacturer's information engraved on the receiver which gives him reasonable cause(which he did not need, since it was in plain view anyway) to check the serial number.
That is a very plausable scenario. Game wardens DO check licenses and guns as a normal part of their duties.

If i saw an engraved receiver on a gun with a short (<16”) barrel, i would likely ask some SBR related questions. One of those would be where is your APPROVED 5320.20?

If you really want to hunt with a short barreled, rifle caliber type firearm. Put your upper on a legitimate pistol lower and skip the whole NFA stuff.

golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:33 pm

Sharkbite wrote: If i saw an engraved receiver on a gun with a short (<16”) barrel, i would likely ask some SBR related questions. One of those would be where is your APPROVED 5320.20?
And the appropriate and legal reaction to these "sbr related questions" would be "am I being detained" and "where is your ATF badge?"

But now we have cops detaining people with pistols to check a mysterious database to see if they "might be" SBRs? This got ugly fast...

On the back of my form 1s it says “This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request"

But hey, you are welcomed to show your personal tax information to whomever you choose....

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John A.
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by John A. » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:43 pm

golfindia wrote:
John A. wrote:
golfindia wrote: Because local/state game warden has zero authority to enforce federal NFA laws.
C'mon now.

If you think that an atf agent is the only person that can arrest someone for a firearm violation, I'm not sure what to say, other than that is demonstrably false.

And you don't have to be an ATF agent to run a serial number either.
Sheesh, where do you guys live? Cananda? California?

NO. Unless you just committed a crime, a local cop doesn't havr probable cause to arrest you for a firearm violation. Unless they are detaining you, just keep walking. Who are your game wardens calling to "run your serial numbers"? There is no 4473 database. That's all paper. A game warden can't run around calling ATF on people he passes in the woods.... Ridiculous.

What if I don't have a serial number? Sounds like some states are in serious need some gun law reforms. Or more people to stand up tp overreaching local LEOs.
I live in one of the best 2A states in the country.

The game wardens in my state are state employees. Their radios are tuned to the same dispatch as the state police. Typically, they just check the national stolen gun database to see if there is a hit on it. Which 911 dispatcher does that for them if they don't have a computer in their vehicle that they can do that themselves.

As for 4473 database, ummm, yes there is. It's not computerized, but it exists. It's called the National Licensing Center and it's located in Atlanta, GA.

It's where FFL's send their paperwork when they go out of business. They ran out of room to store them there and have rented shipping containers to house them. Further, ATF can contact the manufacturer, who points them to a distributor, who points them to an FFl, who points them to who they sold the gun. Granted after the first FFL sale is often when the trail gets cold if they have reason to believe that the gun was used in a crime, but we're getting way off track of how sbr's are registered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9TxOpJTS_8

SBR's are registered by their serial number. Which is in the NFA registry. It matters not what configuration the gun is in. If it's a registered SBR, the serial number is going to be, well, registered. It matters not whether it has a 24 inch barrel, a 1 inch barrel, or no barrel. Or a stock or no stock. The serial number of a registered sbr is what exempts the gun.

ATF is the one who says you are required to provide a copy of your TAX forms to your local sheriffs office. They even put a big cleo copy stamp right on the bottom of their copy now.
When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.

golfindia
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by golfindia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:59 pm

Youre right. You win.

I don't live in a place as aweful as you describe with unchecked LEO power, so I'm good.

Spent years working in a class 3 shop with many leo customers. They would really get a kick out of these horror stories.

I'd still like someone to describe the step by step process of how a game warden can do an NFA database search from the field.

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Sithlord
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Re: SBR Interstate transport

Post by Sithlord » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:09 pm

John A. wrote:
When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.
Most applicable to this divergent thread - although in this case, it's the citizens who are arguing over ignorant firearms laws.

Any LE can run a firearm serial number, including a Game Warden to determine if stolen. That's about it. What's the probable cause for further detainment? Suspicion of illegal SBR? I doubt most LE would know the distinction, or care unless in NY, CA, NJ, It's not a search for NFA items. It's a search for reported stolen....

The Game Warden (should) know whether SBRs are legal for hunting within the jurisdiction, and act accordingly (ie, if they see what they think is an SBR, and SBRs are illegal for hunting, then they may look to see if it is lacking a stock).

Only a Federal Tax Man is authorized to look at a Form 1 / Form 4 tax stamp.

No idea who is authorized to look at a Form 20. I doubt that too many LE even know what a Form 1 / Form 4 / Form 20 is, to be honest.

What does any of this have to do with whether the OP needs to get a Form 20 for TX (YES)? Start your own off topic thread about vagaries of the NFA.

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