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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:16 am 
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Silent Operator

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:19 pm
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dellet-

Last addition for a while, I just keep thinking of new things I wanted to add above.

At what point, when you hand load, do you have to admit that it's either the gun or that you're not making ammo as well as you think? Not to insinuate that we're talking about a bad gun, maybe just a finicky one. Unless, of course, your hand loads are giving you 1/4" groups, plenty of guns perform fine, even great, with factory ammo.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:44 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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ponzer04 wrote:
John A. wrote:
If you own the spikes and are happy with it, great.


I've been very clear that I do own the Spikes and that I am happy with it. The purpose of this post was not to stroke my own ego. Years ago, when I was looking, I would have loved to have found a post like this this, showing all of the options in one place, where people givve opinions or personal testimonies.

Also, I'm discussing a very specific niche (in semi auto), which, no, your bolt gun does not fall into. Unless there is a bolt-action silencer combo. Tell me about it maybe someone will want to know about it when they search this later.

As for my "purpose for use", my personal purpose, when I was looking was a convenient package, warranty, hearing safe, and short. "Purpose built" was defined in my title- "SBR/silencer combo". That's it. I really wasn't going any deeper than that. Just a rifle that was purposely built with a silencer

bangbangping wrote:
Still would go with "none of the above".


Why is that? What else is out there for a rifle/silencer combo that you would prefer?


I have studied virtually everything that I have gotten my hands on for almost 2 decades. I have looked closely at what manufacturers do and have a pretty good understanding of not just what works, but why. I'm not tooting my own horn. It's been a personal passion of mine for many years now.

With that said, I have designed and built multiple suppressors. Some dedicated cans like you mention, and others that can be moved around from gun to gun.

I can say that I think that I have done well for myself in that regard because I can only think of one or two cans that may (big may) outperform mine.

So, while I do not have anything against a commercial can, I believe the quality of mine are for the most part, superior in design and materials. Why? Because they truly are purpose built.

Dellet pointed out to you that if you're only using commercial designs and with commercial ammo straight out of the box, you are not going to ever reach the point of "most accurate" "Most reliable" "Most quiet".

And he's absolutely right.

He touched on some of the why from a ammo manufacturer viewpoint, now I'm going to touch on it from the suppressor viewpoint.

See, when a commercial manufacturer makes a silencer, there are many things that they have to do. And the biggest of which is to simply pad their sales to a comfortable level to be able to separate as much money from the consumer as possible.

Many consumers want the most quiet numbers on paper, totally ignoring that db numbers in the industry are mostly a big joke.

They can change from day to day, purpose built ammunition and a host of other things. It is not until you actually get behind one can you determine which you like "the best". This can get into tone, peak duration, prior hearing damage which one person may perceive and another be totally oblivious to. Even depend on your immediate surroundings due to reflective slapback echo. Being in a wooded area compared to an open prairie or a parking garage, hallway etc.

So, I'm not entirely certain that an empirical test could even physically be done.

Many consumers will have a different idea of what they want their silencers to LOOK like when they attach it to the gun, rather than how it sounds (you proved that in my statement above where I told you that a good suppressed bolt gun is going to be the best choice but you didn't like that reply because "MUH AR".)

You didn't ask how it could be more quiet. You didn't care that you could get better performance from a bolt gun than using on a semi auto or none of that. It totally blew right over your head. I'm not knocking you for that because most consumers are the same way, but you did prove my point about consumers only wanting what they want. So, that's why manufacturers make the models that they do for better or for worse.

Some like traditional thread on silencers, some like silencers that will be largely hidden underneath of handguards, and a large number of other things. But it will almost always go down to weight and db numbers on paper, so they will also look at how much a can weighs or what the largest diameter can they can use the way they want. I have no problem with any of that, but it is what it is.

I personally have higher expectations, and like I said, if I were to be forced to only have a commercial can, I would feel like I've been short changed at the grocery store.

While I am thinking about it, I wanted to point out something about the barrel on the compressor you added above.

The compressor barrel in front of the gas block is not actually the barrel that you are seeing in the photo. What you are seeing is a barrel sleeve so the barrel is better protected from where the suppressor slides back over top of it. That is referred to as a Reflex suppressor. See this video for detailed photos of that part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9QZ_RKRQcg

Reflex suppressors have been successfully used in Europe for many years. Just do a google for reflex moderator (because they don't call them suppressors over there)

If you want my humble opinion about it, it was machined that way for 3 reasons.

1. Lighten weight (first and foremost--see my earlier reply about one of the main things consumers look for)
2. It will disrupt some of the reflex gas back over the barrel to the front of the gas block--everything behind the gas block is just for weight reduction because it doesn't do anything to aid in suppression and
3. To act as a heat sink. This is old WW2 technology and nothing really new or futuristic. I'm not knocking it because it does give the barrel more surface area to aid in cooling. It works.

So, as you can maybe see, the Spikes compressor didn't really do anything that hasn't already been done before.

I don't have a personal complaint about how it's made, though I can think of one way (without seeing what the baffle stack looks like) how it could be improved upon just by the photo of the barrel you uploaded. It's not even a true integrally suppressed upper. It's a reflex can.

You want a purpose built suppressed gun?

Look at the Welrod or the Delisle carbine. Now those, are purpose built suppressed guns.

And now that I have written that, I just wanted to point out that neither are automatic or semiautomatic function. They're both bolt actions :lol:

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When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:51 am 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:25 pm
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Ok, lots of stuff.

First I forgot they had a fluted barrel. That does not mean that it actually does anything to help suppressed firing tho.

The fluting and wrapped gas tube are largely gimmicks. Radial fluting is mostly used on machine guns where cooling is more important than accuracy. You say your getting better than average accuracy so clearly it’s not a problem, but is there any benefit? Personally I would rather see the ribs run the length of the barrel, the radial flutes in theory will create hing points, but in a barrel that short not likely. To see if there is any actual benefit the barrel needs to be heated to a known temp and have cooling time measured and compared.

The wrapped gas tube again needs to be proven. With both of these items proof is often found in the industry adopting the idea. One thing I would hold against artificially cooling the gas tube is that it normally acts as a thermal limiting fuse. It is the first component that will glow red hot and will actually melt before you completely ruin the rest of the upper or suppressor. Keeping it from doing that might keep you in the fight for one more mag dump, but I hope to never find out.

The rest of the dedicated build are mostly features that are a contradiction in use. Ambi controls are nice and I use them. But basically de-horning an AR and recessing the controls does not make any sense to me. I often shoot at -20 and wear gloves, recessing a button makes it harder to hit. I’m not likely to carry an AR concealed so clunky and functional works just fine for me. Again that feature does nothing to enhance performance but looks cool and drives up the price.

The LRS suppressor is nothing special. Decibel reduction seems impossible to find. When they first came out they poured some ridiculously low numbers, got called on it, removed the numbers and in a quick search, I could not find any published. That right there is a huge warning flag for over hype and under deliver on the whole project.

They ported gas out the upper, that arguably could be an enhancement. Sadly it does nothing to make for better operation, only comfort in shooting. I’m all for less gas in the face, but having it leak out 4” from my eyes instead of 2” doesn’t help near as much as not creating it or cutting it off at the source.

The most likely reason that you are advised to not fire the weapon without the silencer is because that would put the muzzle blast under the handgaurd causing damage either to the handgaurd or you hand. Not because it will not function. The problem with the Noveske barrels is/was that the ports were too small to function with subs without a suppressor. This was done to minimize excessive gas.

In short, Spikes built an SBR that is more about form than function. They did a really good job of it, just not for me.

Handloads is another rabbit hole. The short answer to your question is simply another question, at what point do you realize the choice is, craft ammo to fit your rifle, craft the rifle to fit ammo, craft none and hope for the best.

Subsonic ammo has a different purpose than target ammo. It needs to be clean, quiet and dependable. Clean and dependable go together, the by product is quiet.

Factory subs need to cycle the least thought out frankenbiuld out there. To do that they need a lot of gas and pressure at the muzzle. That equates to loud and dirty. My loads, in my rifle need to be able to be shot from inside the cab of my truck, inside a concrete building without hearing protection. The port noise alone from factory ammo will not allow that, never mind the muzzle blast. As far as accuracy goes, if it will be 1.5 MOA at 200 yards, that's good enough for me. That insures that a double tap at 20 yards without sights puts both rounds on a sheet of notebook paper.

If the gun is capable of 1/4 MOA, I am capable of 1/2 MOA, and my handloads are probably capable of 1 MOA. Can't prove that because i have never owned and loaded for a true 1.4 MOA rifle, I have shot a few.

The link I posted sums up what I consider purpose built and if you read it, you probably figured out it was more about ammo than what fires it. That's because the ammo will have a greater effect than anything you can do with the rifle.

You can only cut off so much gas at the ejection port, you can only delay the bolt opening so long and that is still only mitigating the powder that is burning.

Factory ammo is going to have 10 grains of powder, burn <70% of it in an 8" barrel and have a muzzle pressure over 10,000 pounds.

A good handload will have 8 grains of powder, burn > 90% of it and have a muzzle pressure less than 8,000 pounds.

That means less flash and bang for the suppressor to muzzle, and less pressure waiting to escape out the back end of the barrel when the bolt opens.

Then there is wear and tear on the suppressor. With the numbers above, when a round is fired, factory ammo will have 3 grains of powder, traveling at 2000fps at 10,000 pounds of pressure blasting the inside of the can.

The hand load will have .75 grains of powder, at the same 2000 fps at 8,000 pounds of pressure.

Which load do you think will blow more garbage in your face action and trigger group when the bolt opens?

In my opinion, having a bolt carrier that delays opening, like the Enhanced carriers out there, which allow pressure to drop and more complete burning of gas and powder, are much more of a dedicated suppressed fire enhancement, than wrapping a piece of copper wire around the gas tube.

Always open to new ideas, maybe I completely missed what Spikes is offering, but I have never seen anything that leads me to believe they had ultimate quiet on their minds when they built it.

_________________
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:16 pm
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My general philosphy is that I would never buy a real can from a company that sells fake cans.

https://www.spikestactical.com/products ... 2521086732

"The Spike's Tactical CAR-1 Fake Can gives you the looks of having a 10.5" suppressed rifle but doesn't come with all of the expense and paperwork that's required for the real thing."

Not that there is anything wrong with fake cans....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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golfindia wrote:
My general philosphy is that I would never buy a real can from a company that sells fake cans.

https://www.spikestactical.com/products ... 2521086732

"The Spike's Tactical CAR-1 Fake Can gives you the looks of having a 10.5" suppressed rifle but doesn't come with all of the expense and paperwork that's required for the real thing."

Not that there is anything wrong with fake cans....

That's hilarious. They've probably sold bunches of them.

There is also nothing wrong with smaller "tactical" cans. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Silent Operator

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:19 pm
Posts: 70
John A-

You suggested a Welrod, a gun that has literally been featured on a show called Forgotten Weapons. Would you care to elaborate on that one, as well as the De Lisle? Being on a forum titled 300 Blk Talk, I had assumed with my original post that we were sticking to guns in that caliber, but I'm open to discuss other options.

I'm curious about the silencers you build. Do you have a website I could peruse? Since only one or two others "big may" outperform yours, I assume you're selling them somewhere.

I never said "muh AR". The closest I came was "muh semi-auto". I also asked you to tell me about your bolt gun, because someone may be interested in it. Rather than preach the good word of bolt guns and share your knowledge for future searchers, you chose to mockingly insult my preference for semi-autos with "MuH Ar".

Anyway, your super reliable bolt action simply sounds like a constant malfunction to me and absolutely not reliable. mUh BoLt AcTiOn.

I listed AR type guns because ARs win competitions. Not a lot of pros use AKs. Are there many other platforms for 300 Blk? I'd be interested to learn about them. Aside from the Tavor, which isn't sold with a silencer, thus is irrelevant to my topic, I can't really think of anything.

I'm aware the barrel is not the silencer. The can goes over a couple inches of barrel, so the picture I showed of the silencer shows both the silencer and barrel- that's how "reflex" cans work. I never said the barrel fins were for silencing. I was pointing out that it is not an off the shelf barrel, which was made clear by being under the quote talking about the Compressor being off the shelf parts, rather than designed as a combo. Yes, the barrel may be for aesthetics mostly and only moderate heat dissipation but those are features too. You cannot buy that barrel without buying a Compressor upper, so it is not an off the shelf part. The company doesn't say the gas port size but the barrel and silencer are built to be together so, logic would dictate that the gas port size is meant to be part of the equation. You can tune the gun with a full mass BCG or diffetent buffers to meet your wants/needs, but I haven't found this necessary.

Again, yes, I accepted less quiet to get semi-automatic, yes, I downgraded to barely hearing safe to get SBR length but suppressed. I also got super reliable and MOA accuracy with any ammo I feed it without having to make a custom load. Also, I chose a gun that is SBR length with or without the silencer. I also think it's dumb, when paying for two tax stamps, to not have a removable silencer. For the extra money, it is nice to know that I could, if I wanted to, use them separately.

dellet-

This is the only Noveske I found with a silencer. https://www.noveske.com/collections/rifles/products/nsd
It would appear that it isn't recommended to fire without the silencer because, of course, it is pinned and welded to the barrel.

Which of the controls do you think are recessed?

I'd like to add that Travis Hailey used it with just an Aimpoint and made 750m shots, so it's pretty accurate. And, it was the focus of Book of the AR15's 300 Blackout Edition. They had a lot of positive feedback. 


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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ponzer04 wrote:
Are there others out there, are they better, cheaper?


I answered that. Though you didn't like my answer.

There are.

No, I don't have a website, nor do I care to.

I have several designs that are unlike anything you've seen on the commercial market. And work very well.

No, I am not particularly interested in showing many folks what I have under the hood, because:

1. I don't want to pay a patent lawyer.

2. I don't want to pay the patent office.

3. I'm pretty content with just making my own stuff and using it.

There are a few here that I have shared pictures with. Though, not very many but certainly not outside of PM.

But the main reason I don't share pictures, is for the most simple reason that ever was.

I don't have to. I don't have to prove anything to anybody.

_________________
When those totally ignorant of firearms make laws, you end up with totally ignorant firearm laws.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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ponzer04 wrote:
dellet-

This is the only Noveske I found with a silencer. https://www.noveske.com/collections/rifles/products/nsd
It would appear that it isn't recommended to fire without the silencer because, of course, it is pinned and welded to the barrel.

Unless it has changed recently, all Noveske barrels were sold with a disclaimer that it may not function correctly shooting sub-sonics without a suppressor. This was because they optimized the gas port size to not be over gassed, suppressed or with supers. Basically telling their customers that if you don't have a clue, don't by our product and complain.

Most other manufacturers enlarged the ports much more than necessary to idiot proof them from home assemblers and clueless handloaders.


Which of the controls do you think are recessed?
The Compressor lower has some striking details such as the flush ambi controls and the flush anti-roll pins by KNS made specifically for Spike’s Tactical.

Image
Image

I'd like to add that Travis Hailey used it with just an Aimpoint and made 750m shots, so it's pretty accurate. And, it was the focus of Book of the AR15's 300 Blackout Edition. They had a lot of positive feedback. 

Best way to get positive feedback from a Guns and Ammo publication is to buy a lot of advertising.

Jerry Miculek routinely makes 1000 yard hits with a S&W 929 9mm revolver, maybe that's a better option than an SBR since it would only need one stamp and has 300 yards longer range.

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300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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I "purpose built" my SBR for shooting subs and supers. Morphed over time, AGB. worked a nice trigger myself. Not a high dollar 9" barrel but very accurate. I liked building it, like owning it and don't give a happy flying sh&t if anyone else likes it - kind of John A's stance here.
You seem to want to go factory where a lot of fellows here have built their stuff ground up. That's my suggestion and like golfindia, I have no desire to argue the point. You seem to have done a lot of reading, find someone with the weapons you seem to prefer and take them out for a drive.
My build today, after shooting blackout for 6 years - the SBR bolt, two stamp, probably in a Tikka ( damned NZlnders :mrgreen: )

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Silent Operator

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:19 pm
Posts: 70
John A. wrote:
ponzer04 wrote:
Are there others out there, are they better, cheaper?


I answered that. Though you didn't like my answer.

There are.

No, I don't have a website, nor do I care to.

I have several designs that are unlike anything you've seen on the commercial market. And work very well.

No, I am not particularly interested in showing many folks what I have under the hood, because:

1. I don't want to pay a patent lawyer.

2. I don't want to pay the patent office.

3. I'm pretty content with just making my own stuff and using it.

There are a few here that I have shared pictures with. Though, not very many but certainly not outside of PM.

But the main reason I don't share pictures, is for the most simple reason that ever was.

I don't have to. I don't have to prove anything to anybody.


So basically MUH bolt, and mUh fergootin weapons not in the caliber of the forum, oh and my super top secret totally ReAl personally built stuff that is all super better than anything currently offered but I don't want to make sweet monies

Which commercially offered bolt gun/silencer 300blk (I am a whole lot surprised that i have to specify 300 blk in a forum dedicated to 300blk) offerings are out there? As noted I am not interested in bolt guns but would like links as they would be accepted in my list for this post.

And you passively mentioned that of the list I constructed you preferred the Leonidas. This is the only Combo you backed and then continually talked trash about the idea of the post


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