Transporting NFA Stuff

[bangbangping]

So pertinent part of the law reads...

No person shall transport any destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle in interstate or foreign commerce...

You probably know where I'm going with this.

The law clearly states "in interstate commerce" because that's the only Constitutional basis for the prohibition. But what if there's no commerce involved? Suppose I live on the border and simply walk across the unmaintained dirt path to the next state to show my neighbor my new SBR. Clearly there's no interstate commerce, yet from what I read this law is treated as a blanket prohibition (absent permission from the Director, of course). To confuse the issue further, licensees that actually are engaged in interstate commerce involving the firearm are exempted.

It seems to me that, literally interpreted, this law is meaningless for the average person. Of course, laws aren't always enforced as written.

So my questions: Is interstate commerce always assumed? Has anyone tested this law? Does anyone know of any case law regarding this?

FWIW, I live in a big NFA friendly state and have no plans to leave with my SBRs any time soon. I'm just curious.

[KneverKnew]

Assuming the SBR NFA rules are similar to those applied to silencers, my understanding is you need to send letter to ATF notifying them of your intent to travel to an out of state location with said device. You should also have a copy of your tax stamped form. Not sure if this is same for sbr. Doesn't interstate commerce refer to selling the rifle in some other state? Would it not apply if just traveling with said device? With no intent to sell.

[jryock]

I caught that verbage on the form too. Unfortunately they could probably argue that you are transporting the gun for shooting/hunting and that you purchased something in that state to do said things; so you engaged in interstate commerce. I don't have the money to fight big gov't on that one so I will continue to file my annual requests to transport my SBRs from VA to PA.

One positive of the transport form is that it allows me to have some evidence of intent when I'm travelling through unfriendly portions of the country. AND... know that in some places you need to invoke the parts of FOPA so they don't make an example out of you.

[rjacobs]

The form 20 reads "transport interstate or in Foreign commerce" which is slightly different than what you posted. Moving the "in" changes the entire thing.

Both references that the form 20 talks about reference what you quoted(your quote of the statues is correct). The form does NOT read the same.

I know I read an explanation somewhere, at some time, on this, but I cant find it. I want to say it was on Silencertalk. It was something to the fact that the Fed's can regulate INTERSTATE commerce(taxable items moving across state lines), but not INTRASTATE commerce and why the form reads the way it does. Tax status and all that. Moving a federally "taxed" item interstate, the feds can regulate. So even though no "commerce" is taking place, its still a federal taxable item crossing state lines and the feds can regulate its movement. I think that was the justification. Similar to tobacco, alcohol, etc...

Ill do some more searching and see if I can find the thread where it was spelled out. The person who posted it had a great explanation on it that made total sense(even if most people didnt agree with it).

[dellet]

So pertinent part of the law reads...

No person shall transport any destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle in interstate or foreign commerce...

You probably know where I'm going with this.

So my questions: Is interstate commerce always assumed? Has anyone tested this law? Does anyone know of any case law regarding this?

The first thing that comes to mind is the endless arguments over whether or not it is against the U.S. Constitution for States to require a drivers license. In those arguments the definition of "commerce" is profiting from the roadway, being paid to drive, is a privilege which can be regulated. "Travel", the freedom of movement along the same roadway to conduct normal life, can not be restricted.

The NFA item would complicate that travel since the item itself is regulated by both State and Federal laws.

For a really confusing subject read the laws concerning automatic knives. Basically it boils down to, You can own one, but you can not buy, sell or transport one if it involves "commerce".

[Sharkbite]

Assuming the SBR NFA rules are similar to those applied to silencers, my understanding is you need to send letter to ATF notifying them of your intent to travel to an out of state location with said device. You should also have a copy of your tax stamped form. Not sure if this is same for sbr. Doesn't interstate commerce refer to selling the rifle in some other state? Would it not apply if just traveling with said device? With no intent to sell.

No form or permission is needed to travel between states with a suppressor. Only SBR/SBS, machine guns or destructive device need to fill out a 5320.20 and have it approved prior to travel.

Have Can, will travel!!!

[rjacobs]

No form or permission is needed to travel between states with a suppressor. Only SBR/SBS, machine guns or destructive device need to fill out a 5320.20 and have it approved prior to travel.

Have Can, will travel!!!

That is correct, however having a 5320.20 for a can isnt a bad idea if you have to travel through "prohibited" states. When I go to Knob Creek I have to go through Illinois. I know even with a 5320.20 I am risking it, but everything is locked up out of my direct access and we dont stop and we dont speed. My only hope if I was ever to get pulled over is having my approved 5320.20 would get me a little leniency, but I dont know(and I hope I never have to find out). I could see if you have nothing but your Form 1/4, that a cop, especially in Illinois(or any other non FREE state), would have cause, under their state laws, to arrest you and then you sort it out later.

[oberstgreup]

So pertinent part of the law reads...

No person shall transport any destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle in interstate or foreign commerce...

You probably know where I'm going with this.

The law clearly states "in interstate commerce" because that's the only Constitutional basis for the prohibition. But what if there's no commerce involved?

That's not how the commerce clause is interpreted by the courts. The fact that you, as an individual, are not engaging in a commercial transaction at that moment is irrelevant. The commerce clause has been interpreted to grant Congress a broad power to regulate anything relating to interstate commerce, not just the power to regulate actual transactions across state lines.

This applies to everything, not just guns. So, for example, the Supreme Court held not too long ago that Congress may under the commerce clause prohibit someone from growing marijuana in his own house to be consumed by himself on the premises, because even though that person is not directly engaging in commerce across state lines or otherwise, he is engaged in an activity that is part of an industry of interstate commerce. For the same reason the Court held that the ACA (Obamacare) can regulate a doctor treating patients in his own state, or an insurer that only insures patients in its own state, because even though that transaction isn't interstate the health care system as a whole is a broad scheme of interstate commerce.

So, since the firearms industry is a broad scheme of interstate commerce, Congress has the power to regulate anything connected to that industry, including what individual owners do with their firearms - as long, of course, as that regulation doesn't violate the 2nd Amendment.

(And don't shoot the messenger here, I think that's an absurd reading of the commerce clause and not remotely what the framers intended it to cover, but it's the one the courts have used for many decades now.)

[pvanwagner]

Assuming the SBR NFA rules are similar to those applied to silencers, my understanding is you need to send letter to ATF notifying them of your intent to travel to an out of state location with said device. You should also have a copy of your tax stamped form. Not sure if this is same for sbr. Doesn't interstate commerce refer to selling the rifle in some other state? Would it not apply if just traveling with said device? With no intent to sell.

As others have said you don't need to notify them when transporting silencers temporarily but you do for other NFA items.

One thing to note is that you can't send them a letter anymore. You have to use the Form 20. That is a recent change.

[jryock]

Assuming the SBR NFA rules are similar to those applied to silencers, my understanding is you need to send letter to ATF notifying them of your intent to travel to an out of state location with said device. You should also have a copy of your tax stamped form. Not sure if this is same for sbr. Doesn't interstate commerce refer to selling the rifle in some other state? Would it not apply if just traveling with said device? With no intent to sell.

As others have said you don't need to notify them when transporting silencers temporarily but you do for other NFA items.

One thing to note is that you can't send them a letter anymore. You have to use the Form 20. That is a recent change.

Great point. I had to do a Form 20 when I moved to a neighboring city to notify them of the change to the NFRTR (storage location). A letter and modified trust documents are no beuno.