Some of you may remember some talk about the cartridge a while back, and its development. I'm posting to follow up and let you all know how things are going. Some of you that posted up in the earlier thread asked for a follow-up, and showed some interest in it. Some didn't, and that's ok, too.
I'm not posting this to start some cartridge war, so please don't start one either. I feel there is room on this earth for all cartridges, and each has their attributes and shortcomings. I'm only going to discuss progress on the development, performance we've been seeing and try to answer any questions folks might have about it and its functionality.
Just to reiterate, I come in peace.
Some of the basics:
It's a Wildcat currently, no production ammo and not SAAMI spec'd as of yet. It's metric designation would be 6.8x39. It uses the 5.56 case as a host, shoulder gets bumped back about .20, and then it's necked up to 6.8. With this shoulder bump it functions flawlessly in all standard 5.56 mags, including Pmags with their pointy front ribs. The ribs ride on the ogive of the bullet ahead of the neck so no binding, etc. 30 round Pmag holds and shoots 30 rounds no problem. Have tested this extensively as well with standard GI mags and others. Like the BLK, it uses standard 5.56 bolts as well. It uses most of the bullets in the standard 6.8SPC fare well. Right now 85-120 grains have been tested, and the results are pretty good. The 120's not so much, only because the 120SST is so long with its ballistic tip it takes up so much case capacity. 120 grain Fusions, however, although not available these days, did pretty well. Here's some basic stats from a 16", 1:11.25 twist, 5R rifling, mid-gas stainless Pac-Nor test barrel:
85MPG - 2750+ fps
90TNT - 2675+ fps
95TTSX - 2600+ fps
100AB - 2625+ fps
110SPH - 2475+ fps
(The + after the numbers simply means we pushed them anywhere from 25-50fps faster than that number, but with hot loads and very exact sizing/headspacing, etc.) All of the velocities above were accomplished with sub-moa groups and no significant pressure signs.
Best powders we've seen so far are 1680 and 1200-R. We didn't have a lot of powders available (like most folks these days), but, once these get in the hands of other folks I think we'll start seeing a lot more data. I have some pretty extensive load development/data lists going in case anyone is interested in seeing the ladders and such.
The first batch of barrels are in, and at the manufacturer waiting for me to final call the gas port size. With the test barrel, we went up to .098 so that it would cycle/lock back on all loads tested. So, that will probably be the number but we're going to take one of the production barrels and check it out real quick, too. They are ARP 16" "Scout" profile barrels, threaded, melonite, etc. I only ordered 50 to start, and some of the folks that have been interested since the beginning have been allowed to pre-order. Delivery should be around August 1 for them.
Dies - Hornady is making my first batch of (50) production dies, and they should be here in about a month or so as well. So, if all planets align well, barrels and dies will go out together.
I will also have Sheridan Engineering slot gauges available, and currently offer dedicated Little Crow WFT 1's and WFT 2 inserts for trimming. Sizing and trimming is really easy. No chop saw needed unless you want to speed up the trimming. Size, and trim using the WFT. That's it. After sizing you just end up with a really long neck, which the die sets accommodate. A few seconds in the WFT and you're trimmed to final length.
I also have some custom stainless 18" and 10.5" barrels getting done, but not sure when they'll arrive.
Concept for this cartridge, as in the reason I wanted to move forward with it, was CQB/Mid-Range Self Defense and small to large game hunting. I wanted something better than the 5.56 in my eyes, but didn't want 7.62x39, either. When I say large, I don't mean Elephants and Oxen of course, I mean deer at appropriate ranges. Some consider deer medium game, but I guess it depends on where you come form because here in Illinois they get to be quite large. With the right bullet choices and proper loads, the cartridge holds its own out to 300+ yards. If you insist on 1,000 ft/lbs of energy on target, maybe not, but if you're ok with 800+ then all good. Bullets like the 95TTSX will expand out to 325+. So, I call it a 300 yard hunting rifle. I think that's fair. If you start talking anti-personnel capabilities, I think you can extend that slightly. Heck I can't even see 300 yards away so this will be all good for me.
We're going to play with some 1:8 twist barrels and 180-220 grain bullets sub/suppressed, but it won't do as well as the BLK there. That's just simple physics. Larger, heavier bullet going 1,000fps beats smaller, lighter bullet going 1,000fps. With supers, the Wolverine will shine when it comes to trajectory/velocity and energy on target/expansion at longer ranges.
Anyhow, if you have any interest or questions, etc. just let me know.
Thanks!
Edit: Oh, and, I make no claims to be a ballistic expert, 50 year gunsmith, or any other kind of know-it-all. So, any feedback and/or suggestions any of you may have are welcomed.
Here's a few random photos so you can see what the cases, cartridge, etc. look like:
This one shows from left to right, 5.56, .277 Wolverine, 300BLK, 6.8SPC.
.277 Wolverine Info
Moderators: gds, bakerjw, renegade
.277 Wolverine Info
Last edited by MDWS on Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Mark
Mad Dog Weapon Systems, Inc.
maddogweapons.com
Mad Dog Weapon Systems, Inc.
maddogweapons.com
Re: .277 Wolverine Info
Thanks for this! Seriously considering pulling the trigger...
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I bet your NFL team could beat my NFL team...
I bet your NFL team could beat my NFL team...
Re: .277 Wolverine Info
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I do see the appeal of this one, and think it makes sense.
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Re: .277 Wolverine Info
Looks good to me. I like to see individuals wildcatting like this. It expands the possibilities!
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- Silent But Deadly
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Re: .277 Wolverine Info
I find this one interesting.
- Jim Timber
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Re: .277 Wolverine Info
What are you looking at for a barrel/die/gauge set price point?
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- Silent But Deadly
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Re: .277 Wolverine Info
Or maybe just a barrel & die set. I'm very interested in this as an intermediate caliber. Either this or a .264 variant.Jim Timber wrote:What are you looking at for a barrel/die/gauge set price point?
- randyrucker
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Re: .277 Wolverine Info
Will it come in a complete upper or do I have to build something ? Whats the velocity on a 10.5 inch barrel with 110 gr ? Will a SDN-6 work with it ?
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Re: .277 Wolverine Info
With the smaller .223 case and a .277 bullet the muzzle pressure should be much less than a .308 win. I plan on doing one of these and shooting my 762-SDN-6 on it or like I said maybe a .264 varient. I really like my .260 Rem and was considering a 6.5 Creedmore, but I like the idea of using the .223 case and having full magazine capacity. Also on top of that the idea of using all standard parts just like 300 Blackout is very nice. I know 300 Blackout is Robert's baby, but I'd love to hear him chime in and tell us what he thinks of this. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if he hadn't tried this at some point before. I know there were a lot of different variations contemplated when they came up with the 300 Blackout. This probably wouldn't cycle the subs so it would never compete with the 300 Blackout for supers/subs combination, but I really like the idea of a slightly lighter and faster deer round.
Re: .277 Wolverine Info
The 10.5" barrels have pistol gas so they should cycle fine once the port size is settled. We don't have one/haven't tested one yet so can't give you velocolities, sorry. Barrels are $220.00 on pre-order right now, will bump to $235 after pre-sale. Dies are at about $85/set for sizer and seater right now. These prices are "shipped". Really I just want to get it out there for people to play so not making much if any money off of this first batch; just enough to hopefully cover overhead and R&D costs this time around. I'm in pretty deep on this whole thing so if I break even I'll be happy.
-Mark
Mad Dog Weapon Systems, Inc.
maddogweapons.com
Mad Dog Weapon Systems, Inc.
maddogweapons.com
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