350 Legend

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plant.one
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by plant.one » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm

ok so lets be honest here...

yes looks like theres a bad batch or two of ammo out there. that happens to *EVERY* manufacturer from time to time... EVERY DAMN ONE.


let see how Winchester responds, and then judge them.


i mean.. theres no denying that there are QC issues to be addressed, but as we all know its the response thats just as critical as the oopsie that will truly make or break this.

this is not a caliber issue as it is a HUMAN error issue. someone screwed the pooch and some bad ammo got out that never should have - we should be buying blem brass and bullets from american reloading, and probably will be soon enough :p


i'm not exempting them from any blame they deserve for this... but im saying lets not get the gallows out just yet.



If we'd have abandoned the 300 blk for all the ammo issues that it went thru over the years - vmax blowing primers, remington 120 chambering issues with the RARR's, not to mention the numerous 'boutique reman issues' like from ozark, etc - none of us would even be here eh? and thankfully this looks like an ez fix from an incorrect die setting and some less than stellar QC sample checking.
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golfindia
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by golfindia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:38 pm

And if Win can't get it right at the factory, imagine all the angst this is going to cause newbies who run out, buy an upper and start kludging together hand loads.

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dellet
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by dellet » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:46 pm

Nice video, decent write up.....

No reference of before and after firing of the brass. His post fired case mouth measurement is larger than I personally would like to see in a case mouth headspaced chamber, meaning it's too large of diameter. That would also depend on thickness.

Second clue might be that a cast bullet which is normally .309+ instead of .308 fills the chamber and headspaces correctly. Remember headspacing off the case mouth means that diameter is just as, if not more important than length. Too much crimp,

This could be due to over crimping, but could also be thin brass or a loose chamber.

Without knowing the bullet diameter he used successfully and loaded ammo dimensions, he can't really make a claim.

Finally, over gassed, over buffered and maybe an extra power spring all all things that should be avoided in something stopping on the case mouth. Good way to add your own crimp.

The case head separation could also be related to over gassing, easier to pull the case apart, than rip the rim off. This is a huge problem with the magnum caliber gas guns.

Any time some one says they know the chamber is right because they chambered it, has not done enough work to know better.

I'm skeptical, but will also say that this is not a cartridge for beginning loaders, and an AR only compounds the possibilities for disaster.
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GunFunZS
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by GunFunZS » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:15 pm

A couple things:
To Plant's comments
1-no one made any claims that the whole cartridge is a loss, or that all Winchester ammo is bad.

2- however, it does show that one theorized weakness is a reality. i.e. the fact that it headspaces on the case mouth makes it far more prone to this kind of problem, whether in handloads or in commercial ammo.

3- The primary criticisms of Winchester have been about hype and being deceptive in their performance claims and comparisons. Kenny's experience does nothing to affect those criticisms one way or another. He has been excited about this caliber and has shown that you can get decent performance in his other vids.

to Dellet's comments:

4- You are right to suspect that he didn't chamber ream correctly.

5- you completely missed that he said he had identical issues with the same ammo out of a commercial CMMG barrel. I don't think he clarified whether he took measurements with the CMMG barrel, and I think the bore scope test would have been more convincing had he shown that with the CMMG barrel. I think that even if his chamber was a bit loose, it still demonstrates a problem inherent in the cartridge design. It is prone to this kind of problem with minor variations in chamber spec. A new or worn reamer could be enough to cause this kind of thing.

to both

6 Kenny went out of his way to say that he had other good Winchester ammo, and that this is just a bad lot or two. He was not throwing the brand under the bus.

Personally, if I had this cartridge, I would want to know the info Kenny put out. I would also want to know that winchester was dishonest about performance claims. I would further want to know that there are actually other viable cartridges which satisfy the legal requirements it is designed to fit in.

To me, the cartridge is niche for people who live in weird hunting laws areas. Ballistically, the idea of the cartridge is fun, but 357 AR max does everything it does better, without proprietary brass. 358 Yeti is more appealing, but it is built around AR10, and is not straight wall.

Post attempt #1

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dellet
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by dellet » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:41 pm

GunFunZS wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:15 pm
A couple things:
To Plant's comments
1-no one made any claims that the whole cartridge is a loss, or that all Winchester ammo is bad.

2- however, it does show that one theorized weakness is a reality. i.e. the fact that it headspaces on the case mouth makes it far more prone to this kind of problem, whether in handloads or in commercial ammo.

3- The primary criticisms of Winchester have been about hype and being deceptive in their performance claims and comparisons. Kenny's experience does nothing to affect those criticisms one way or another. He has been excited about this caliber and has shown that you can get decent performance in his other vids.

to Dellet's comments:

4- You are right to suspect that he didn't chamber ream correctly.

5- you completely missed that he said he had identical issues with the same ammo out of a commercial CMMG barrel. I don't think he clarified whether he took measurements with the CMMG barrel, and I think the bore scope test would have been more convincing had he shown that with the CMMG barrel. I think that even if his chamber was a bit loose, it still demonstrates a problem inherent in the cartridge design. It is prone to this kind of problem with minor variations in chamber spec. A new or worn reamer could be enough to cause this kind of thing.

to both

6 Kenny went out of his way to say that he had other good Winchester ammo, and that this is just a bad lot or two. He was not throwing the brand under the bus.

Personally, if I had this cartridge, I would want to know the info Kenny put out. I would also want to know that winchester was dishonest about performance claims. I would further want to know that there are actually other viable cartridges which satisfy the legal requirements it is designed to fit in.

To me, the cartridge is niche for people who live in weird hunting laws areas. Ballistically, the idea of the cartridge is fun, but 357 AR max does everything it does better, without proprietary brass. 358 Yeti is more appealing, but it is built around AR10, and is not straight wall.

Post attempt #1
I think a crimp is only part of the problem. Anytime a crimp becomes a cannalure it's s problem.

With a case separation due to pressure, you would have gas leakage around the mouth of the case head where it came apart. Those cases looked pretty clean when he picked them up off the shooting table or out of the catcher. This is why I think it might be over gassed. The brass may also just be soft.

Measurements at the point of separation might confirm that. The base did not have excessive expansion based on comparison to SAAMI, but for all we know they grew .010" because there was no baseline of before and after. I did not see a case length in the video. That brings up a whole different set of possibilities.

He's got blown primer pockets, If he can still seat a primer, it wasn't pressure that blew them out. Maybe I missed that part also, but did not see a mention.

When you look at his reloaded round, there is an obvious bulge where the bullet is seated in the case. Brass sized too small are an invitation for high pressure and separations. I wonder if that is his die, or if factory ammo is the same.

Really not enough info to decide if it is an ammo lot issue or a design issue. It's great that he is raising awareness and certainly don't mind kicking manufacturers in the ass when they get it wrong. Top that off with absolutely hating uboob reviews that do nothing but praise sponsors, I applaud him for posting that. More people should.

I like the idea of the cartridge and would like to see it succeed

For what it's worth, using CMMG as an example of properly cutting chambers is probably not a good idea.
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rebel
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by rebel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:21 pm

I'm over on the Reloaders Network and have watched several of Eagle Eye shooting videos, and I have read his posts. He is a very knowledgeable handloader among other things. All that being said, and I thought his video was good, I think dellet is on to a potential issue as well as Kenny's assessment. Over gassing was/is a huge problem with pistol gassed 300 Blk. I would suspect problems with other newer rounds as well. Mfg. want to make sure they cycle. Kenny's rig has no trouble cycling, just keeping the factory chit together once the trigger is pulled.
I find it reassuring that his handloads worked great.This very well maybe a combination of issues which can be a bear to troubleshoot - but he has found one problem for sure, whether its chamber or factory ammo - he knows there is an issue. Curious to see what else he finds.
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plant.one
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Re: 350 Legend

Post by plant.one » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:32 pm

so wait.. why ya'll seem to think i'm banging on kenny?

yes i make some occasional hyperbolic statements like "If we'd have abandoned the 300 blk for all the ammo issues", but i do so to make the point that while this is good to know, lets not lose our minds over it. its a safety issue to be aware of - in this specific case that it looks like there may be unsafe lot #'s of ammo out there - nothing more, nothing less. knowledge is power an all that.

i never said anything kenny claimed in the video was wrong... i'm just making very general observations about what i'm seeing overall - both in the specific video and what any of us who've been here for a while have experienced as claims made about many other ammo issues in the past, regardless of caliber or manufacturer. folks tend to jump on either the manufacturer or the caliber (and sometimes both!) when these little things happen - and i dont want to see this turn into another "omg <insert name here> sucks" thread.


bang did say
WTH was Winchester thinking?
again i dont feel that this is a Winchester problem - which was primarily my whole point. nor is it a straight walled cartridge problem. this is something that an individual working in the trenches failed at - someone on the factory floor... the company had nothing to do with it, other than their name on the package. which is why i clearly said -- lets see how winchester handles the issue before anyone gets up in arms about it. If an ONLY if they drop the ball on dealing with this QC issue will it officially become a "Winchester problem"..


2- however, it does show that one theorized weakness is a reality. i.e. the fact that it headspaces on the case mouth makes it far more prone to this kind of problem, whether in handloads or in commercial ammo


its only a reality due to HUMAN error - on a relatively small scale no less - not caliber/cartridge design. If indexing on the case mouth with straight walled cartridges were a SIGNIFICANT safety issue - we'd have a never-ending story of issues with almost semi-auto pistol caliber on the planet - along with almost every caliber thats now elligible in the niche world that the 350 legend is trying to break into - that being the restricted hunting zone cartridge list. 9mm is probably the 3rd most common caliber on the planet - only surpassed by (if i recall correctly) 22lr & 7.62x39 - and you dont see this kinda thing showing up all over the place. if indexing off the case mouth were a design issue - we'd have known it for the last 80 years or more.
golfindia wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:38 pm
And if Win can't get it right at the factory, imagine all the angst this is going to cause newbies who run out, buy an upper and start kludging together hand loads.


yes the fact that this cartridge indexes off the case mouth is something to be conscious of for both reloaders and manufacturers, but EVERY cartridge has things we as shooters - and especially those of us who reload need to be aware of. like we have a HUUUUUGE list of brass thats not recommended for conversion to 300 blk due to neck wall thickness. or that if you push the shoulder back too far (or nor far enough) so its out of spec you have a problem. or if you dont trim the neck of a cartridge to spec you can have a big problem. the list is nearly endless.

but each of those items only turn into safety problems when HUMAN error comes into play and are not design flaws. they are production flaws. when the design and specifications are followed, things work safely like our expectation of them is.



however, i feel that often the part of what's often left out off the conversation is that once we all know what those "be aware of" things are and whats required to overcome them - we can all safely navigate around them and be safe - both on the commercial scale and the home reloader.
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