Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

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eugenesan
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Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by eugenesan »

Dislaimer:
* I have no intention to offend anyone and if I am wrong, please do correct me.
* I am looking at things as an engineer so my approach might look "odd" to some, please bear with me.
* I am talking about actual "work" done by the bullet on impact in self-defense/hunting, completely ignoring ballistics and accuracy.
* By hunting I mean hunting of small to a medium game (no big Elk, Moose, Bison, Polar bear :-)) and I am perceiving the target as if it was a gel block, ignoring possible nuances as changes in density, obstacles on a flight path and possible non-linear trajectories inside the target.


In short, I am trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rifle for hunting, in addition to 5.56@16"/.300blk@7" combo.
In length, I am trying to finally realize if ENF (my term for expanding non-fracturing, usually full copper) bullet from the smaller cartridge can do the work of a classic FMJ bullet from a "faster+bigger" cartridges? For example, can we "compare" actual work done ENF .300BLK@125gr bullet and FMJ .308@150gr?

The story:
Nowadays, there is a great selection of ENF bullets for many calibers and weights, especially the .300blk.
My analysis and intuition say that ENF is significantly more effective than FMJ and certain .300blk cartridges should equate to average hunting cartridges in FMJ.
But, old-timers and experienced shooters almost universally claim that "one absolutely need a serious (insert your preference as 308, 30-06, 6.5cm, 7mm, etc) cartridge to make a kill and anything less is inhumane and silly". Note, they almost always refer to an FMJ bullet and often do accept the fact that smaller pistol cartridges with ENF bullets (for example 9mm HST) can do the "work" of the bigger cartridges.
Is it wishful thinking on my part, trying to extrapolate the success of ENF in pistols to rifles, or the old-timers just unaware/uninterested in the "new"?

The arguments:
People do not realize but ENF bullets, grow up to x3 times their original caliber during the expansion (before they shrink to ~x1.5), regain ~100% of their weight, each petal becomes four sharp blades (~3/4" long blades in case of .308 bullets) and supersonic bullets lose relatively little of their velocity over effective range (especially of shot from fast twist barrels).
My understanding is that FMJ bullets, cause damage mainly by "hydro-shock" in first 1-2 inches and by multiple small channels caused by fragments. Also, from what I am reading, bigger bullets tend to passthrough without fragmentation, utilizing only a (small?) portion of their potential. While ENF bullets dump all of the energy into useful work and rarely leave the target.

Now the questions:
1. Is the rifle style velocity (allegedly hydro-shock critical 2200fps) is an absolute necessity even for ENF bullets?
2. What actual portion of the FMJ bullet energy is utilized? Is there any research on the subject?
3. Can we guesstimate a comparison table for .308win FMJ versus .300blk ENF?
4. Will 16" .300blk barrel have a significant advantage over 16" 5.56 (both with ENF cartridges)?
dowser
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by dowser »

I don't know about where you live, but in my state it is illegal to hunt with full metal jacketed bullets. I have never read/heard anyone who considered FMJ to be appropriate for hunting, and I have never seen a FMJ bullet marketed as a hunting round.
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Flatliner
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by Flatliner »

Great question. Based on a lot of reading and limited personal experience, the combo of 223 and 300 AAC with proper bullet choice and a willingness to stay in their effective range envelope will do anything a traditional hunting calibre will do. I believe the only thing gained with the larger calibre is terminal velocity at longer ranges.
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by dellet »

It really does not matter what weapon you choose, as long as you use it within your limitations.

Notice that the emphasis is on you, not the weapon. Probably not a good idea to hunt lions with a spear from 30 yards, if you can only throw it 25.

Using a 300 Blackout with a 7” barrel is better compared to pistol hunting than rifle with supers, and archery with subs when starting out. Once you understand the limits of the cartridge and yourself, then you can extend the distances.

The cartridge can be extremely effective within 200 yards and beyond on small to medium sized game. Bullet choice and placement, the actual piece of the puzzle that does the killing, is not the responsibility of the cartridge.

Full metal jacket is a poor choice of words, generally applied to military non-expanding type bullets. I’m not sure that’s what you mean. Most “Match bullets” and hunting bullets for that matter, are full metal jacket, simply meaning “no exposed lead”. It’s the thickness of the jacket and bullet design that determine how easily it will dump energy on impact.

Lots of things to consider in the bring enough gun argument. The thing that is most often overlooked or not given an honest review is hunter skill. Sasha Siegel killed Jaguars probably numbering in the hundreds with a spear. I don’t think he let it out of his hand. It’s all about technique.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by blaster »

good info above.
I hunt deer and hogs with my .30/06, 300 Black Out and even the .223 . it all depends on where I hunt. the '06 in areas where I might have to take a long shot and the 300 Black Out or .223 when the shots will all be fairly close or in a populated area. as far as terminal ballistics, think of the 300 Black Out as a .308 at 300 yds. I seldom use the 223 anymore since I got the Black Out.
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eugenesan
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by eugenesan »

Thank you all for valuable input.

Could you please specify which bullets and barrels did you use when hunting?

I guess my 7" .300blk won't be effective enough for distances above let's say, 100y.
To increase my effective range to 300y, do you think I should get a 16" .300blk barrel or my 16" 5.56 can provide comparable performance with expanding bullets?
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by blaster »

my 300 Blk barrels are 9" & 16" . most of the shots I get where I use them are under 100 yds. I did shoot a 200 lb boar hog through the ribs at about 70 yds with the 9" pistol. the 125 gr. SST blew about a 1 inch exit hole with the jacket stuck in the hair. he ran about 20 yds. I normally hunt with one of my 16" barrel AR s or my 300 BLK. Mini 14.
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by tallburnedmidget »

eugenesan wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:40 pm Thank you all for valuable input.

Could you please specify which bullets and barrels did you use when hunting?

I guess my 7" .300blk won't be effective enough for distances above let's say, 100y.
To increase my effective range to 300y, do you think I should get a 16" .300blk barrel or my 16" 5.56 can provide comparable performance with expanding bullets?
I think you received some really good responses. The FMJ points are legitimate since the FMJ bullet is not designed to expand where your other ENF bullet is designed to expand and retain all it's mass.

Now the questions:
Q: 1. Is the rifle style velocity (allegedly hydro-shock critical 2200fps) is an absolute necessity even for ENF bullets?

Answer: velocity absolutely does matter. Force = Mass x Acceleration, acceleration is Velocity squared. so Force = Mass x (Velocity)^2. Lets not discuss the complication of of velocity decreasing yet accelertion staying constant, etc. etc. Let a physics buff give you the most accurate answer on that discussion. My point is that simple stated if you have a higher velocity you have a greater force applied.
When shooting an animal it is desired to transfer as much force into the animal as possible to cause as much damage as possible to most quickly kill the animal.
Now the amount of velocity needed then becomes the question and comes back to the points the other guys make about understanding the range to work within. I personally don't have a bullet and velocity combo that I would take a 300yd shot at on a deer using the 300 BLK. I guess the 110gr Barse blacktip might be the best bet for a bullet that will perform at the lower velocity a 300yd 300BLK would produce.

Q: 2. What actual portion of the FMJ bullet energy is utilized? Is there any research on the subject?

Answer: FMJ bullets generally just pierce right through an animal. They don't mushroom to transfer force and cause more trauma like your ENF bullet would. Kinetic Energy = .5 x Mass x Velocity^2, so whatever the kinetic energy was before the bullet hit the animal minus the kinetic energy of when the bullet leaves the animal would give you a rough understanding of the amount of energy the FMJ transfered/utilized on the animal. So we come back to velocity and distance mattering again to answer this question.
The FMJ would transfer a lot less energy than an ENF simply based on design of the bullets performance (expanding/mushroom vs no deformation).


Q: 3. Can we guesstimate a comparison table for .308win FMJ versus .300blk ENF?

Answer: Not really. Your question is talking apples to oranges and then pears to plums in various areas for that kind of guesstimation. The closest guestimation you can get to is if your 308 used an ENF of the same weight as the 300BLK ENF and then you would have to get lucky (which is very likely not the case) and have the 308 bullets energy transfer be linear or constant based on the velocity the 308 bullet was tranferring energy in comparison to the energy the 300BLK bullet is transfering. If that lucky, then a comparison table could be made but... I would bet hard money that there is no clear correlation to energy transfer that can be made due to all the variables in play (hit bone, no bone, density of one animal vs another, shot placement, impact angle, etc.). You could just assume and it would be a gamble where sometimes it is in the ballpark but there would be no consistent repeatability.

Q: 4. Will 16" .300blk barrel have a significant advantage over 16" 5.56 (both with ENF cartridges)?

Answer: With all the explanations given above the answer to this question just depends. Using JMballistics.com, If you can send a 5.56 80gr ENF screaming at 2800fps muzzle velocity (this would be one hot load and not sure it can be had with a 16" barrel) you have 1393 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle, about a 2606 fps at 100yds with 1206 foot pounds of energy.
A 110gr ENF 300BLK bullet screaming at 2400 fps would have 1407 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, about 2106 fps at 100yds with 1083.9 foot pounds of energy.

So in this example the 300BLK does not win with bullet energy at 100yds. If the 80gr ENF for the 5.56 had a muzzle velocity of 2600fps the velocity at 100 yds would be 2414fps with energy of 1035 ft-lbs which then loses to the the 300BLk by 48ft-lbs.


Now that does NOT take into consideration the damage caused by the shock of the bullets at those speeds. This only considers the bullet energy at 100yds.

I'm very positive that the faster the bullet is traveling that the better the damage that is inflicted to organs if/when the bullet hits the animal and mushrooms and does it's thing.
It is a no brainer that if you shoot a deer with a 110gr Blacktip from a 300BLK (designed to expand at 300BLK speeds) and you performed the same shot on an identical deer with a 110gr TTSX from a .308 at 308 speeds you would notice a lot more damage from the 308.

I've never shot a deer with a 223/5.56 80gr bullet but I would bet that it leaves bloodshot shoulders where I know that 110gr blacktips leaves me just about zero bloodshot in the shoulders on deer. I've been trying to do shoulder + double lung shot on deer with the 300BLk to keep them from going as far and I process my own deer so I am positive there is little blood shot in this case. I'll let someone with 5.56 80gr deer shooting supply info to backup/deny my assumption here :)

This is all been great discussion and I hope this info helps with understanding and helps you get to the desired information or additional questions you may ask :)
eugenesan
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by eugenesan »

Thank you guys for such valuable information, I really appreciate it.

As someone who just trying to get into the hunting, I will need help understanding what "bloodshot shoulder" means.
Does that refer to the bleeding out of entry and exit wounds, due to heavy damage of the surrounding tissue?
Is "bloodshot shoulder" is an undesirable thing that should be avoided?
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Re: Trying to decide if I need a "big" caliber rilfe in additipn to 5.56/.300blk combo

Post by dellet »

tallburnedmidget wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:34 pm
eugenesan wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:40 pm Thank you all for valuable input.

Could you please specify which bullets and barrels did you use when hunting?

I guess my 7" .300blk won't be effective enough for distances above let's say, 100y.
To increase my effective range to 300y, do you think I should get a 16" .300blk barrel or my 16" 5.56 can provide comparable performance with expanding bullets?
I think you received some really good responses. The FMJ points are legitimate since the FMJ bullet is not designed to expand where your other ENF bullet is designed to expand and retain all it's mass.

Now the questions:
Q: 1. Is the rifle style velocity (allegedly hydro-shock critical 2200fps) is an absolute necessity even for ENF bullets?

Answer: velocity absolutely does matter. Force = Mass x Acceleration, acceleration is Velocity squared. so Force = Mass x (Velocity)^2. Lets not discuss the complication of of velocity decreasing yet accelertion staying constant, etc. etc. Let a physics buff give you the most accurate answer on that discussion. My point is that simple stated if you have a higher velocity you have a greater force applied.
When shooting an animal it is desired to transfer as much force into the animal as possible to cause as much damage as possible to most quickly kill the animal.
Now the amount of velocity needed then becomes the question and comes back to the points the other guys make about understanding the range to work within. I personally don't have a bullet and velocity combo that I would take a 300yd shot at on a deer using the 300 BLK. I guess the 110gr Barse blacktip might be the best bet for a bullet that will perform at the lower velocity a 300yd 300BLK would produce.

Q: 2. What actual portion of the FMJ bullet energy is utilized? Is there any research on the subject?

Answer: FMJ bullets generally just pierce right through an animal. They don't mushroom to transfer force and cause more trauma like your ENF bullet would. Kinetic Energy = .5 x Mass x Velocity^2, so whatever the kinetic energy was before the bullet hit the animal minus the kinetic energy of when the bullet leaves the animal would give you a rough understanding of the amount of energy the FMJ transfered/utilized on the animal. So we come back to velocity and distance mattering again to answer this question.
The FMJ would transfer a lot less energy than an ENF simply based on design of the bullets performance (expanding/mushroom vs no deformation).


Q: 3. Can we guesstimate a comparison table for .308win FMJ versus .300blk ENF?

Answer: Not really. Your question is talking apples to oranges and then pears to plums in various areas for that kind of guesstimation. The closest guestimation you can get to is if your 308 used an ENF of the same weight as the 300BLK ENF and then you would have to get lucky (which is very likely not the case) and have the 308 bullets energy transfer be linear or constant based on the velocity the 308 bullet was tranferring energy in comparison to the energy the 300BLK bullet is transfering. If that lucky, then a comparison table could be made but... I would bet hard money that there is no clear correlation to energy transfer that can be made due to all the variables in play (hit bone, no bone, density of one animal vs another, shot placement, impact angle, etc.). You could just assume and it would be a gamble where sometimes it is in the ballpark but there would be no consistent repeatability.

Q: 4. Will 16" .300blk barrel have a significant advantage over 16" 5.56 (both with ENF cartridges)?

Answer: With all the explanations given above the answer to this question just depends. Using JMballistics.com, If you can send a 5.56 80gr ENF screaming at 2800fps muzzle velocity (this would be one hot load and not sure it can be had with a 16" barrel) you have 1393 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle, about a 2606 fps at 100yds with 1206 foot pounds of energy.
A 110gr ENF 300BLK bullet screaming at 2400 fps would have 1407 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, about 2106 fps at 100yds with 1083.9 foot pounds of energy.

So in this example the 300BLK does not win with bullet energy at 100yds. If the 80gr ENF for the 5.56 had a muzzle velocity of 2600fps the velocity at 100 yds would be 2414fps with energy of 1035 ft-lbs which then loses to the the 300BLk by 48ft-lbs.


Now that does NOT take into consideration the damage caused by the shock of the bullets at those speeds. This only considers the bullet energy at 100yds.

I'm very positive that the faster the bullet is traveling that the better the damage that is inflicted to organs if/when the bullet hits the animal and mushrooms and does it's thing.
It is a no brainer that if you shoot a deer with a 110gr Blacktip from a 300BLK (designed to expand at 300BLK speeds) and you performed the same shot on an identical deer with a 110gr TTSX from a .308 at 308 speeds you would notice a lot more damage from the 308.

I've never shot a deer with a 223/5.56 80gr bullet but I would bet that it leaves bloodshot shoulders where I know that 110gr blacktips leaves me just about zero bloodshot in the shoulders on deer. I've been trying to do shoulder + double lung shot on deer with the 300BLk to keep them from going as far and I process my own deer so I am positive there is little blood shot in this case. I'll let someone with 5.56 80gr deer shooting supply info to backup/deny my assumption here :)

This is all been great discussion and I hope this info helps with understanding and helps you get to the desired information or additional questions you may ask :)
16” barrel
150 grain bullet
2150 fps mv, 1500 ft pounds
100 yds, 1925 fps, 1235 ft pounds
200 yds, 1725 fps, 980 ft pounds.

The 7” barrel would have roughly the same performance at 100 yards as the 16” at 200.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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