Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

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Freedom1973
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by Freedom1973 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:30 pm

rebel wrote:Wait - carbine gas, 18 inch, 208 bullets, subsonic? It can't be - it just won't work - it can't cuz the internet commandos said it wouldn't :mrgreen:
Edit - All you newcomers to the cartridge, please take notice of what is being done here and compare that to what folks have said CAN be done. There is a bit of difference there. Never think you are a supers only guy because of carbine length gas.
Thanks Rebel and Dellet for the posts. I run a 16" carbine gas 1/8 twist with standard buffer/bolt. I have developed a decent collection of loads based off the info here and my own testing/chrono work. So much potential with this platform if you do your homework and pay attention to the details. The 208 EDL's are sitting on my bench waiting for some free time.

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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by mauidiver » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:37 pm

Thanks for the data Dellet, Found 2 lbs of N120.

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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by Deude_Mann » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:02 pm

I have a curiosity question on the N120 powder. I am about to work up some subsonic loads using the Vihtavuori N110 powder in LC brass (cut down from 223). The bullets will be the 194 grain Lehigh expanding type. 16" barrel, 1:7 twist. It looks like Vihtavuori likes the N110 for super and sub 300BLK.

Any potential issues using the faster burning N110 over the N120? Any reason why you are using the N120 instead of the N110? I'm not trying to second guess anyone, just hoping I might learn something.

Thanks

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dellet
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by dellet » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:30 am

Deude_Mann wrote:I have a curiosity question on the N120 powder. I am about to work up some subsonic loads using the Vihtavuori N110 powder in LC brass (cut down from 223). The bullets will be the 194 grain Lehigh expanding type. 16" barrel, 1:7 twist. It looks like Vihtavuori likes the N110 for super and sub 300BLK.

Any potential issues using the faster burning N110 over the N120? Any reason why you are using the N120 instead of the N110? I'm not trying to second guess anyone, just hoping I might learn something.

Thanks
Depending on barrel length and twist, gas system length, suppressor or not, bullet weight and length are all things that go into choosing a powder. Bullets are chosen for use. Then everything else starts to fall into place.

So this was an excercise in doing everything wrong to prove that with a bit of thought, many things are not what they seem.

I chose N120 because it had not been available in the States for a few years but felt it would be a good substitute for 1680. Something that would cycle carbine gas length systems without a suppressor.

N110 is too fast to reliably cycle a carbine gas system, without a suppressor. It can work in shorter barrels, but at 16” it hard to not go super, harder still in an 18”. It works very well in pistol gas systems, even better in short barrels.

So my rule of thumb for AR’s is carbine gas for barrels 10” and longer and N120 for subs. Anything shorter is pistol gas and either N105 or #9 for bullets 175 grains and up. Suppressed.

Without a suppressor I almost use N120 exclusively.

Lighter bullets the whole game changes again.

N110 could be a reasonable choice for both supers and subs, with the right set up. It might be a problem with 200 grain bullets without a suppressor in carbine gas.

So for what you’re thinking about with the 194’s, gas system length, port size, buffer weight and suppressed or not is info that would be needed before trying to work up a load.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by Deude_Mann » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:01 am

Thanks Dellet for the information.

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Bob the nailer
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by Bob the nailer » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:25 pm

dellet wrote:Started on a new load this weekend, looking good so far, only 50 yards but I think it will work.

10.5 grains Vihtavuori N120
208 grain Hornady ELD M
2.250 COL
1.515 CTBO
18" carbine gas 1/10 twist Xcaliber barrel


Image

Image

That's some fine shootin there :shock:
Snow must have melted a bit at the range.
One ragged hole! The quest for accuracy continues...

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dellet
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by dellet » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:07 pm

Bob the nailer wrote:
dellet wrote:Started on a new load this weekend, looking good so far, only 50 yards but I think it will work.

10.5 grains Vihtavuori N120
208 grain Hornady ELD M
2.250 COL
1.515 CTBO
18" carbine gas 1/10 twist Xcaliber barrel


Image

Image

That's some fine shootin there :shock:
Snow must have melted a bit at the range.
Hard to believe that was almost 2 years ago.

That ELD is a great bullet as a sub, just takes about 1850 to get a bit of expansion. Shame they don't do the 155 in an X model.

Snow is finally gone and have a couple new things to try. One will be that new Nosler 220.

Also need to get a dime shot :oops:
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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Bob the nailer
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by Bob the nailer » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:50 pm

Just goes to show good threads never die, I know I have been diggin thru the search link made for 300BlkTalk.

With the size of your groups you need to hit a "pea" :mrgreen:
One ragged hole! The quest for accuracy continues...

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Yugnat
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by Yugnat » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:43 pm

Deude_Mann wrote:I have a curiosity question on the N120 powder. I am about to work up some subsonic loads using the Vihtavuori N110 powder in LC brass (cut down from 223). The bullets will be the 194 grain Lehigh expanding type. 16" barrel, 1:7 twist. It looks like Vihtavuori likes the N110 for super and sub 300BLK.

Any potential issues using the faster burning N110 over the N120? Any reason why you are using the N120 instead of the N110? I'm not trying to second guess anyone, just hoping I might learn something.

Thanks
I started developping a subsonic load for a 10.5 barrel suppressed and pistol gaz system with N110. As soon as my load went subsonic I started to get some cycling issues. I tried 190 grains HPBT to 230 grains casted bullets.

Now I switched to N120 and I get my bolt to hold open well below subsonic velocity. Night and day! That leaves plenty of room to work with the load. Only con : some unburnt powder residue that still needs to be investigated.

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dellet
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Re: Hornady 208 ELD M, Vihtavuori N120 Subsonic

Post by dellet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:23 pm

Yugnat wrote:
Deude_Mann wrote:I have a curiosity question on the N120 powder. I am about to work up some subsonic loads using the Vihtavuori N110 powder in LC brass (cut down from 223). The bullets will be the 194 grain Lehigh expanding type. 16" barrel, 1:7 twist. It looks like Vihtavuori likes the N110 for super and sub 300BLK.

Any potential issues using the faster burning N110 over the N120? Any reason why you are using the N120 instead of the N110? I'm not trying to second guess anyone, just hoping I might learn something.

Thanks
I started developping a subsonic load for a 10.5 barrel suppressed and pistol gaz system with N110. As soon as my load went subsonic I started to get some cycling issues. I tried 190 grains HPBT to 230 grains casted bullets.

Now I switched to N120 and I get my bolt to hold open well below subsonic velocity. Night and day! That leaves plenty of room to work with the load. Only con : some unburnt powder residue that still needs to be investigated.

Same answer for both problems, change the burn rate of the powder.

For the 110 load you can try moving the bullet out some. This will slow down the burn rate giving you more gas when you need it, as the bullet leaves the barrel. To maintain velocity you might need to add powder, giving still more gas.

For the 120, do the opposite, move the bullet in. This will increase the burn rate and pressure at it's peak and will burn cleaner. You will also need less powder to get the same velocity, further reducing what's left behind.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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