Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely. update 7/1/18

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dellet
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Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely. update 7/1/18

Post by dellet »

I don't post much about my loads for a couple of reasons, the main one is that I am generally operating outside of normalcy. The other is, if people don't pay close attention to what I write, they get in serious trouble quickly.

A couple of quick thoughts, and then my latest adventure.

First, in my opinion there is no such thing as "safe reloading", there is only "less dangerous" reloading. Your life and limb is at risk every time you touch off a round you put together. You can absolutely limit that risk but you can't eliminate it.

Any load I share worked out fine for me, there is a very good chance it won't work or be safe for you or any one else. I will try to always share methods that eliminate risks, but you have to be your own judge, your firearm will be the jury, your cartridge needs to be your liberator, not your executioner.

What I have done over the last three years, is explore the extreme possibilities of the 300 Blackout cartridge. Most is at proven concept stage and only needs to be stretched in yardage, to see if a sub MOA group at 200 yards will hold at 500, 600, 750 or maybe even 1000.

For sub-sonics the challenge is how low can you go in bullet weight. Is it possible to shoot a sub-sonic pistol weight round of 125-140 grains.

How many powders will work and how versatile or they.

All these things I have played with. The cartridge is much more versatile than it is used by most people and I hope that others, who are working outside the box will share some experiences here, so we can all learn and expand our knowledge base.

Keep it safe as possible, and please ask and discuss before ever attempting anything that seems too far out of reality.
Last edited by dellet on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by dellet »

300 Blackpowder, or 30-24 Blackout

This was inspired by a question last week from a member who wondered if in the ultimate prepper situation, you could make your own powder and have a viable load. The answer is absolutely.

I have a reasonable amount of Black powder experience, including muzzle loaders and cartridge. Any one who read that thread saw it grab my attention. A single shot Shuetzen Rifle in a rimmed 300 Blackout could be very interesting, but why stop there.

For loading black powder, recipes are fairly basic. Fill the case with powder, seat the bullet somewhere around the diameter of the bullet, make sure it chambers without jamming in the lands, crimp and shoot.

Reduced loads using black powder can be extremely dangerous, air space can kill you. Black powder is an explosive, it goes boom, it does not burn, it does not forgive. Fortunately it is very predictable and that's what makes it reasonably easy to work with.

For those who do not know, black powder cartridges are easy to understand, bullet Caliber-Charge weight, 30-24 Blackout is a 308 bullet, seated over 24 grains of powder, in this case FFFg goex. As a rule of thumb, water volume/weight and powder capacity will be the same.

For safety, generally, with known cartridges, it is almost impossible to load enough powder in a given case to blow anything up, but that should not be considered a challenge.

As with all new loads it is good to find a close reference to extrapolate from. In this case it was a 32-20. A .312 110 grain bullet over 20 grains of powder. It was the second cartridge Colt introduced as usable in rifle and pistol. Basically failed as a Rifle cartridge, but gave me the info I needed. Known pressures were manageable and the bullet size is actually used by many in this cartridge.

What can go wrong :lol:

Load data:

Brass,
converted LC trimmed to 1.355
Primer,
Rem 7 1/2
Bullet,
Hornady 125 SST
Powder
24 grains FFFg Goex (real honest to goodness Black Powder)
Seated depth
300

Results:

It works,

I shot it first from a Model 7, the strongest action I own. Then I the shot it suppressed. ( Black powder is very corrosive, but can be cleaned with hot water, I can also take my suppressor apart to clean) It is clearly a super sonic load, but it was too dark to get data.

Now for the fun part.

24 grains of FFFg under a 125 SST, cycles a pistol length AR when suppressed, It did not lock back correctly on empty, the carrier caught on the mag release, so it was very close. I think, if I work with seating depth I can get it to work. Possibly a 135-140 grain bullet. But for now I feel the experiment was a success.

I have a few tricks I can also try with the build, like changing to a carbine buffer and spring.

I hope to come back with some velocity and accuracy data this weekend, probably all from the Handi rifle, it's the easiest to clean.

Anyone else have an outside the box load to share?
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by rebel »

I sense......
Image
....a disturbance I have not felt since....... :mrgreen:
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by 1slow01Z71 »

Ive shot my 8" to 500yds on multiple occasions. Due to the lack of speed and the bullet designs generally used in 300blk they don't fair so well way on out there as the little flat base bullets lose steam. With low wind I can keep them on a 10" plate no problem but I rarely stretch it out that far. Mainly a "see what a little short barrel can do" occasion for non believers.
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by dellet »

1slow01Z71 wrote:Ive shot my 8" to 500yds on multiple occasions. Due to the lack of speed and the bullet designs generally used in 300blk they don't fair so well way on out there as the little flat base bullets lose steam. With low wind I can keep them on a 10" plate no problem but I rarely stretch it out that far. Mainly a "see what a little short barrel can do" occasion for non believers.
I have seen some of your results, and they are not the average Blackout results, or at least what most people think they are. :shock:

I am trying to move beyond the parlor trick kind of long range shots, and it is absolutely amazing what can be done with a little work.

I shot an 1.5" group at 200 yards, out of a 7" barrel using a dot scope and a bipod using UMC 120's. Sent a photo to the barrel manufacturer as way to say "thanks it seems to be working". They posted the photo in their testimonial page. That gave me an Idea of how little respect there is for the cartridge as an accurate round at distance.

I think some of the folks on this forum need to spread the word a little. Keeping a 175 grain match grade bullet above 1100 fps at 750 yards, is no problem. No reason it can't compete in the middle of the pack or better at that range.

More on that load later.
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by 1slow01Z71 »

A buddy of mine shot his 700 300blk to 1000 with 125 BTs with mixed results. While it can reach on out there its long flight time gets the pants knocked off of it with any wind at all. On a calm day its fun to send them way on out there but with any wind it just become pure luck. Youre better off shooting a 208 amax than lighter pills at that point.
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by dellet »

1slow01Z71 wrote:A buddy of mine shot his 700 300blk to 1000 with 125 BTs with mixed results. While it can reach on out there its long flight time gets the pants knocked off of it with any wind at all. On a calm day its fun to send them way on out there but with any wind it just become pure luck. Youre better off shooting a 208 amax than lighter pills at that point.
Thats one of the things that need actual range results instead of paper projections. The 208's have a much better BC, but you lose vital powder space and velocity.

A 175 at 2000, or a 208 at 1750. will need to be shot side by side and really compared for repeatability.
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by 1slow01Z71 »

dellet wrote:
1slow01Z71 wrote:A buddy of mine shot his 700 300blk to 1000 with 125 BTs with mixed results. While it can reach on out there its long flight time gets the pants knocked off of it with any wind at all. On a calm day its fun to send them way on out there but with any wind it just become pure luck. Youre better off shooting a 208 amax than lighter pills at that point.
Thats one of the things that need actual range results instead of paper projections. The 208's have a much better BC, but you lose vital powder space and velocity.

A 175 at 2000, or a 208 at 1750. will need to be shot side by side and really compared for repeatability.
I can't get 2000 out of a 178 but I'm using an 8" barrel for all my testing. The 208 BC will outrun the 178 if you're talking about reaching way on out there. The 208s run so well I'm rebarreling my 308 bolt gun to an 8 twist for shooting only 208s for long range. I too am a fan of walking a little off the beaten path and many times it works :D
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by dellet »

I started using the new tipped 175 grain Match Kings. They have one of the shortest bearing surfaces that I could find, without going to basically a custom bullet. This allows a very long COL. 2.4+. More powder, or less pressure.

The other thing I have found that really surprised me, is that the same load shot in an 18" 1/10 AR, is about 50-60 fps faster in a 16" 1/7 bolt action. I thought with the extra 2" they would be closer to the same velocity. It's amazing how much velocity is lost in a gas operated system.

For targets inside 500 yards, with a 16" barrel, even things as heavy as 220-240 can do very well. For hunting some of the 150-180 grain class can reach 200 yards at 1750-1800 fps. which is the minimum working threshold from most manufacturers.
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Re: Extreme Blackout, What are the limits and how do we explore them safely.

Post by Dolomite_Supafly »

Blackpowder silenced, concealing the sound of the shot as well as the shooter itself. I imagined it looked like those 70's ninja movies where they throw something on the ground then disappear.

I often wondered that with my 16" pistol gas gun I owned. I told plenty of people I thought it would cycle with blackpowder and now I know it does.
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