Primers for subs....Magnum pistol?

[Hulley]

I don't see the need to use anything other then what was intended for in a certain application. Rifle for rifle, pistol for pistol. Even in 2012 and 2013 deep in the panic I still found and used the proper components. If anything I would think the .01 cent difference or whatever it is isn't worth others safety at the range around me or my own.

Cost is not a problem, it's availability. I stopped at a gun show this past weekend, and while I found a ton of powder, I could not find small pistol or small rifle, but I did find plenty of small magnum pistol.

I currently have in my inventory,
1600 small pistol
2000 small pistol magnum
1000 small rifle 7 1/2 Remington.

Oh, and about 15lbs of powders. I'm more concerned with finding small pistol!

[dellet]

This spec sheet has been around for a while, I am not sure if this is the original origin, but it has been quoted many times. It's included in a much longer write up on the SKS forum and is worth a read.

One of the things to note is that CCI appears to be the only company using a .020" thickness in their magnum pistol primer, the rest use .017". It is thought that they did this in response to H110/296 and Lil'gun becoming so popular in the magnum pistols, or maybe just to save the cost of using one primer in two different boxes.


http://www.sksboards.com/smf/?topic=56422.0

PRIMER CHART & REFERENCE GUIDE

Small Handgun Standard .017" cup thickness

CCI 500
Federal 100 - Has a soft cup - good to use if hammer strike is light.
Federal 100M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SP
Magtech PR-SPC - Lead-free "Clean Range" primer for indoor ranges etc.
Remington 1 ½
RWS 4031
Winchester WSP
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol SP #KVB-9 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9SP - "For 9×19 NATO cartridges"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9S - "For Sporting Pistol loads"

Small Handgun Magnum .017" cup thickness

CCI 550 See Note 1 at the bottom of page
Federal 200
Federal 200M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SPM
Remington 5 ½
RWS 4047
Winchester WSPM
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol Magnum SPM #KVB-9M - brass cup - "For Magnum Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Standard .020" cup thickness

CCI 300
Federal 150 - Has a thinner cup
Magtech PR-LP
Remington 2 ½
RWS 5337
Winchester WLP
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol LP #KVB-45 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Magnum .020" cup thickness

CCI 350
Federal 155
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol Magnum LPM #KVB-45M - brass cup - For Magnum Pistol loads

Small Rifle Standard

CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
CCI BR4 - match primer with a thicker .025" cup.
Federal 205 - Mil-Spec cup thickness according to Federal - okay for 5.56mm. .0225" cup thickness.
Federal 205M - same as the 205 but the match version.
Magtech PR-SR - .025" cup thickness (not much feedback yet on this new primer as to AR15 suitability but with the same cup thickness as the Rem 7 1/2 it looks good so far)
Remington 6 ½ - thin .020" cup, intended for older, lower pressure rounds Remington says do not use for the .223 Rem or other similar pressure rounds. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Lyman & Nosler classify this primer as a Standard. Remington says the compound is the same as the 6 1/2 but with a thicker .025" cup.
RWS 4033
Winchester WSR - some piercing issues noted when changed from silver to brass cup. Cup thickness is a bit thinner at .021". Most say they are good to go for the AR15 despite that, probably because of the hardness of the cup. Some feel they are less resistant to higher pressures.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle SR #KVB-223 - soft, sensitive copper cup, not recommended for AR15/military rifle use or high pressure rounds.

Small Rifle Magnum

CCI 450 - same thicker .025" cup as the BR4 and #41.
CCI #41 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo. With this primer there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup than with other CCI SR primers. .025" thick cup. Same primer mix as CCI 450.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Hornady, Handloads.com, and Chuck Hawks classify this primer as a Magnum, differing from other sources that classify it as a Standard. .025" cup thickness.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle Magnum SRM - hard, less sensitive brass cup intended for AR15/military rifle and high pressure rounds - #KVВ-5,56M.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle 223 SR223 - #KVB-223M "This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite."

Large Rifle Standard

CCI 200 - mild in brisance. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
CCI BR2 - same as the 200 but the match version. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210 - medium brisance between CCI/Remington & Winchester. Do not use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210M - match version of the above primer. Do not use in semi-automatics.
Magtech PR-LR
Remington 9 ½ - mild in brisance.
RWS 5341
Winchester WLR - the hottest standard primer. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle LR #KVB-7 - all brass - "For Standard Rifle loads".
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle #KVB-7,62 - "For 7,62 NATO cartridges"

Wolf/Tula primers are used by noted match shooter David Tubbs who says: "Be sure they are seated into the case - if not they can be hard to ignite. Russian primers use a different sinoxide compound (closer to the European type), which, in my testing, consistently delivers better extreme spreads over Federal..." Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.

Large Rifle Magnum

CCI 250
CCI #34 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Federal 215 - original magnum primer
Remington 9 ½ M - mildest magnum primer.
RWS 5333
Winchester WLRM
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle Magnum LRM #KVB-7M - all brass - "For Magnum Rifle loads".

50 BMG

CCI #35 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Winchester 8312
Wolf/Tula 50 Cal Machine Gun #KVB-50 - For 50 Browning Machine Gun

Primers recommended for use in .223 Rem/5.56 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #41, 450, BR4 (#41 & 450 good with ball powder)
Federal 205, 205M
Remington 7 1/2 BR (good with ball powder)
Winchester WSR (good with ball powder)
Wolf SRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf SR223 (hotter than SRM - great with ball powder)

Primers recommended for use in .308 Win/7.62x51/7.62x39 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #34, 200, BR2, CCI 250
Winchester WLR, WLRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf LR

WOLF/TULA PRIMER APPLICATION CHART FOR ALL PRIMERS - http://www.mpzflame....uction/primers/
Wolf and Tula are two of the common U.S. marketing names of primers made by Murom (OJSC «Murom Apparatus Producing plant» "For many years, our constant partners are «The Tula Cartridge Works», «Barnaul Cartridge Plant» and others.").

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NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably.
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[steven11b]

Well if they are the same then I guess they are the same! Either way I'll stick to rifle for rifle and so on.

[dellet]

Well if they are the same then I guess they are the same! Either way I'll stick to rifle for rifle and so on.

It's probably safe to say that CCI 550's and CCI 400's are the same. Applying that to other brand primers falls under the category of user discretion/risk.

You need to save a lot of pennies on the cost of primers to replace a pitted or etched bolt do to a leaking or pierced primer. .003" difference in thickness is 15%, pretty significant when it comes to pressure or resilience in metals.

[steven11b]

Well if they are the same then I guess they are the same! Either way I'll stick to rifle for rifle and so on.

It's probably safe to say that CCI 550's and CCI 400's are the same. Applying that to other brand primers falls under the category of user discretion/risk.

You need to save a lot of pennies on the cost of primers to replace a pitted or etched bolt do to a leaking or pierced primer. .003" difference in thickness is 15%, pretty significant when it comes to pressure or resilience in metals.

That's kinda what I was getting at when saying 1 cent isn't worth using the incorrect primer whatever the outcome could be. I wouldn't be worried about the sub loads with pistol primers but why even get into that. Mixing primers between rifle and pistol just doesn't seem necessary in any scenario short of the apocalypse!

[RockyRiver]

Closest I'm ever going to come to an apocalypse is when I go down to any of the local gun stores and theres dingbats who don't even shoot buying up reloading supplies and .22 shells so they can be ready for the collapse of the new world order when reloading supplies and .22 will be like currency. Oh wait, I'm living in the apocalypse. Its been years since Ive seen 22 shells and small rifle primers on the store shelves and the dingbats keep buying them up as soon as the stores open EVERY DAY.

[fockewulf37]

Well as we know today 11/10/20 there are no primers to be had. So I have been compilating on trying small pistol magnum primers in my 300 blackout loads. I keep reading the primers are too thin. Well I have loaded about 10 of them and they worked fine. Primers looked good after being fired . No slam fires. So i decapped the cases and measured them the thickness of the primers is between 0.014 and 0.015 . I took some range brass 223's. I decapped them and found that the primer thickness was between 0.012 and 0.014.. I have read an article saying they were 0.017 in thickness. I even cut one down to get the base thickness and there was no difference???

Any Thoughts

Ty

[Ranch565]

Any velocity changes with mag pistol primers?

Accuracy?

[fockewulf37]

Maybe 50 ft/second but no real accuracy change.

Ty

[dellet]

Well as we know today 11/10/20 there are no primers to be had. So I have been compilating on trying small pistol magnum primers in my 300 blackout loads. I keep reading the primers are too thin. Well I have loaded about 10 of them and they worked fine. Primers looked good after being fired . No slam fires. So i decapped the cases and measured them the thickness of the primers is between 0.014 and 0.015 . I took some range brass 223's. I decapped them and found that the primer thickness was between 0.012 and 0.014.. I have read an article saying they were 0.017 in thickness. I even cut one down to get the base thickness and there was no difference???

Any Thoughts

Ty

First if you’re not measuring new primer cups, it’s pointless. Then there is a question of hardness, that unless you have pretty nice lab, you can’t measure at all.

Hardness in primer cups serves two purposes. For military applications it’s safety first but also pressure. I use Remington 1 1/2 pistol primers in many of my rifles for the very specific reason that they are very soft and ignite easy. They also blow holes due to excessive pressure around 42,000 psi. So I load accordingly.

Most Magnum pistol primers are not rated to the pressures produced with supers. A lot of small rifle aren’t either. If you load accordingly it’s not a problem.

Don’t believe for a minute that subs don’t operate at high pressures, most of my loads are 45,000 psi minimum. Some over 60 000.