Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

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pyromancer
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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by pyromancer » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:39 pm

Ken70 wrote:OP, just buy the RCBS small base die. You only need the one die and not the set. That will get the case down to the smaller dimension your chamber obviously requires. If you got some Cerrosafe and a good micrometer that measures to the .0001", you could make a chamber cast and then measure it and find out how close to the blueprint it is. And measure the formed brass and see what you got.

Lee stated why they don't make a small base die; they feel it works the brass too much. Plus their dies seem to work for most users. Like others have said, 300 isn't the easiest round to produce. Especially if you're using different headstamps. You'll notice a lot of the vendors make a point of using only one headstamp, they've already found out about variances.
I got the RCBS small base dies so far they are working great and just as expected. Every piece of brass formed with them drops into the Sheridan gauge and seems to have a little bit of wobble just as expected.

As to the Lee Precision dies, different brass, and variances, Lee Precision makes this product to reload rounds, no they do not say anywhere the rounds produced with their dies from 223/5.56 will fall into SAMI cartridge spec, and I am using a sizing die as a forming die, like many others are doing. I am saying nothing about using their dies to resize 300aac brass back into SAMI cartridge spec. I am specifically talking about forming 223/5.56 brass to 300aac brass that falls in SAMI cartridge spec. The fact that brass produced from 223/5.56 with a Lee Precision die will chamber in some rifles does not prove that the brass is in SAMI cartridge spec, just as my experience with the Lee Precision dies does not prove that I didn't just get a bad set of dies.

What my experience does prove is that Lee Precision will not stand behind their dies ability to form 223/5.56 brass into SAMI cartridge spec. Forming to the SAMI cartridge spec from what I have interpreted from the SAMI drawings means that the round should chamber in any chamber that is in the SAMI chamber spec. Link to the drawing again for reference.http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Dr ... ackout.pdf

If you want to purchase 300aac dies for the intended use of forming 223/5.56 into SAMI cartridge spec 300aac and want to be sure they will work for that use, Lee Precision dies are not the way to go, as they will not back up this use. Will other manufacturers? That's a good question, I honestly do not know I found what worked for me and moved on. 400 mixed head stamp rounds with an RCBS small bass die and no issues. Factory ammo no issues. Brass produced with a Lee Precision die and measured in a Sheridan gauge 100% fail rate in the gauge check, 60-70% fail rate in my rifle, but this is my personal experience it may not be the experience of others. Could it have been a bad set of dies, sure that was my original thought, but Lee Precision did not offer to inspect them, they told me they did not support the use of their dies for forming 223/5.56 into SAMI cartridge spec 300aac. I do not seem to be alone in this experience either. Should others feel the desire to write some other companies to see if they would stand behind their dies ability to form 223/5.56 into SAMI spec 300aac and report back with their findings it would be beneficial information.

From my experience, understanding of the SAMI cartridge and chamber specs, and Lee Precisions response, I can say without a doubt that if you want to purchase 300aac dies for the intended use of forming 223/5.56 into SAMI cartridge spec 300aac and want to be sure they will work for that use/ have the manufacturer stand behind their dies to do that, Lee Precision is not the way to go.

Edited: for extra clarity on which of the two different SAMI specs I am referring to.
Last edited by pyromancer on Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by takiniteasy88 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:58 pm

I will do some experimenting with this, I only use Lee dies but I re-size all of my 5.56 brass in batches and when I need 300 brass I just grab some of my already sized 5.56 brass. I will Take some once fired 5.56 brass, cut and size using only my Lee 300 die set and see if I notice any difference. But the way that I have been processing my brass could very well explain why I have never had a problem with my Lee dies.

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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by Omega » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:10 pm

OP, I didn't quote you because its just a bunch of misinformation. I think you miss the entire fact of what we are telling you. Lee will in fact form 300 blk to SAAMI specs, it just doesn't form it to minimum SAAMI specs. The Sheridan is minimum or close to minimum SAAMI spec so if it fits a Sheridan it will fit practically any rifle. But many, though not all, that fail the Sheridan will load just fine.

Now if your argument stated that the Lee dies didn't form or resize shells small enough for your chamber, then enough said, carry on with the small base dies.
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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by pyromancer » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:18 pm

Omega wrote:OP, I didn't quote you because its just a bunch of misinformation. I think you miss the entire fact of what we are telling you. Lee will in fact form 300 blk to SAAMI specs, it just doesn't form it to minimum SAAMI specs. The Sheridan is minimum or close to minimum SAAMI spec so if it fits a Sheridan it will fit practically any rifle. But many, though not all, that fail the Sheridan will load just fine.

Now if your argument stated that the Lee dies didn't form or resize shells small enough for your chamber, then enough said, carry on with the small base dies.
You do realize there are two different specs, a chamber spec and a cartridge spec. From what I see comparing chamber to cartridge the two do not overlap. The cartridge is set to X-.005 where as the chamber is set to Y+.002 if you can give me a maximum cartridge spec that does not fall into a minimum chamber spec I will admit I am wrong. I have not done this for all measurements only those that have concerned me, but it does seem to be the case for all I have looked at, and as a logical conclusion it does make sense why would anyone make a cartridge spec that would not fit in a chamber spec.

pdf with both for reference I find this easiest to compare.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Dr ... ackout.pdf

best image of cartridge I could find.
Image

best image of chamber I could find.
Image
Last edited by pyromancer on Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by TMD » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:23 pm

I have about 10 sets of Lee dies including .300bo and all have worked great. In fact the only set of dies I've ever had a problem with were from Hornady for my 6.8spc. Hornady initially tried to say my dies were fine and the chamber in my rifle was too tight. After sending them back with a resized case then ended up having to cut the base down because the shoulder was too high.

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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by Omega » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:46 pm

pyromancer wrote:
Omega wrote:OP, I didn't quote you because its just a bunch of misinformation. I think you miss the entire fact of what we are telling you. Lee will in fact form 300 blk to SAAMI specs, it just doesn't form it to minimum SAAMI specs. The Sheridan is minimum or close to minimum SAAMI spec so if it fits a Sheridan it will fit practically any rifle. But many, though not all, that fail the Sheridan will load just fine.

Now if your argument stated that the Lee dies didn't form or resize shells small enough for your chamber, then enough said, carry on with the small base dies.
You do realize there are two different specs, a chamber spec and a cartridge spec. From what I see comparing chamber to cartridge the two do not overlap. The cartridge is set to X-.005 where as the chamber is set to Y+.002 if you can give me a maximum cartridge spec that does not fall into a minimum chamber spec I will admit I am wrong. I have not done this for all measurements only those that have concerned me, but it does seem to be the case for all I have looked at, and as a logical conclusion it does make sense why would anyone make a cartridge spec that would not fit in a chamber spec.
---cut---
Look, the SAAMI spec is all you need; it lists maximum cartridge/minimum chamber. So, if you have a chamber at the minimum chamber diameter and a cartridge at the max cartridge diameter it may not load...simple really.
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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by pyromancer » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:00 pm

Omega wrote: Look, the SAAMI spec is all you need; it lists maximum cartridge/minimum chamber. So, if you have a chamber at the minimum chamber diameter and a cartridge at the max cartridge diameter it may not load...simple really.

Chamber diameter minimum .3769

Cartridge diameter maximum .3759

What measurements are you looking at?

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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by ihenry3 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:42 pm

I use Lee to form my brass and it falls in spec, but I have to screw the die down where it barley touches the shellplate on my XL650. Here are a few pic of my formed LC brass and a 300BLK brass.

Image
Image
Image
Dillon 650XL w/ Case Feeder
Spikes Tactical Upper and Lower
CMMG 16.1 Melonite 300AAC Barrel
Fail Zero EXO Coated BCG

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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by Omega » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:58 pm

pyromancer wrote:
Omega wrote: Look, the SAAMI spec is all you need; it lists maximum cartridge/minimum chamber. So, if you have a chamber at the minimum chamber diameter and a cartridge at the max cartridge diameter it may not load...simple really.

Chamber diameter minimum .3769

Cartridge diameter maximum .3759

What measurements are you looking at?
Yes, these. But you cut the part on top where it says dia -.002 so the range is .3759 to .3709 and chamber is .3769 to .3789. Lee will guarantee that your cartridge is resized to within .3759 to .3709 but since it is not a forming die they won't guarantee any diameter using it that way. Now your chamber, if the reamer started out at .3769ish, not saying this is what happened, it could wear down making the chamber tighter than SAAMI spec. Again, not saying this is what is accounting for the field reports that cases that won't load into a Sheridan guage will fit in many chambers but it may be. I know that in my case, that is happening, as long as the cases go into the Sheridan most of the way (about .001 sticks out) it will chamber.

I don't recall if you measured your Lee formed cases but I am sure that if they were out of spec(a possibility) Lee would of exchanged them. Since you moved on to the small base dies this thread has become a moot discussion unless you want to discuss the theory that overworking the brass by resizing with small base dies will cause premature case failure :shock: but since I have no dog in that fight I would be out.
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Re: Do not buy lee dies to reform 223 5.56 to 300aac brass

Post by pyromancer » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:30 pm

Omega wrote:
pyromancer wrote: Yes, these. But you cut the part on top where it says dia -.002 so the range is .3759 to .3709 and chamber is .3769 to .3789. Lee will guarantee that your cartridge is resized to within .3759 to .3709 but since it is not a forming die they won't guarantee any diameter using it that way. Now your chamber, if the reamer started out at .3769ish, not saying this is what happened, it could wear down making the chamber tighter than SAAMI spec. Again, not saying this is what is accounting for the field reports that cases that won't load into a Sheridan guage will fit in many chambers but it may be. I know that in my case, that is happening, as long as the cases go into the Sheridan most of the way (about .001 sticks out) it will chamber.

I don't recall if you measured your Lee formed cases but I am sure that if they were out of spec(a possibility) Lee would of exchanged them. Since you moved on to the small base dies this thread has become a moot discussion unless you want to discuss the theory that overworking the brass by resizing with small base dies will cause premature case failure :shock: but since I have no dog in that fight I would be out.
Your saying a few different things here so lets take them one at a time.

#1
chamber diameter range .from drawing .3769 tolerance +.002
range .3769-.3789

cartridge diameter range from drawing .3759 tolerance -.005
range .3709-.3759

If we compare these ranges chamber to cartridge there is no way they overlap we seem to now be agreeing on this.

#2
As for my chamber being out of spec these pieces of reformed brass where tested against two separate things one my gun 70% failure rate and a Sheridan gauge 100% failure rate. So Sheridan gauge is tighter then my chamber which makes since as I understand it a Sheridan gauge is set to near SAMI min spec so should be tighter then most guns.

#3
Why would rounds that don't fit in a Sheridan gauge fit in some guns. Well if we look at point number one the ranges never overlap what this means is you can have a larger chamber say .3789 and still run rounds that are out of SAMI spec (.3759-.3788) without issue where as a Sheridan gauge being close to minimum chamber spec is going to have issues with anything larger then .3768

#4
I agree saying much more is pretty worthless I bought a Sheridan gauge as it is guaranteed to be in spec and was far cheaper then a quality micrometer or pair of calipers that would do 4 digits with sufficient accuracy. Also as from above any cartridge that is in diameter spec should fit in any chamber that is in diameter spec so there is no need for even doing a measurement. If its too tight, its out of spec that simple. We are just speaking of diameter here but again it seems to be the case for every measurement I have looked at in comparing cartridge to chamber spec. Lee did not offer to take the dies in to inspect them they simply told me they can not guarantee there dies will reform .223/5.56. which I am reporting here. There is no point in speculating on what ifs.

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