208 A-max vs 220g anything

[1slow01Z71]

I have not hunted with subs but I know there are some here that do successfully.
I believe the key is getting the bullet to tumble as none (except Lehigh & 1 other) are designed to expand.
I have shot well over 1000 each of the 208 BTHP, 208 AMax, 220 SMK and 225 BTHP bullets loaded to sub velocities and have found no difference getting any of them to cycle properly with the "coveted" A1680 powder.
Not trying to be brash or offend anyone but I equate using A1680 to buying a book called "Reloading For Dummies".
Do I use A1680? Yes, but I don't restrict myself to only A1680, many other powders will work.
My go to sub loads are;
208 w/ A1680 for carbine gas
225 w/ RL7 for either carbine or pistol gas
220 SMK w/ W296 for pistol gas

Why use something different if 1680 works great?

Why limit yourself to one powder that is so elusive?

Didnt know it was that hard to get. Ive got plenty but have ran across a few pounds of it here and there over the last couple months and you can buy it all day long at gun shows for 35 a pound.

[tallburnedmidget]

I think everyone has pointed out the bullet expansion point.

I say the 208gr Amax. Strictly because MidwayUSA has gotten them as overruns/blems the last two big blem sales they have had over the past 6 months. If you are loading 208 Amax all the time then you get them like $11 off when the blems come out.

Simply a $$$$ decision

[teej]

Where are you guys finding cheap 208gr bullets? These 220s are around $27/100 https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/pro ... -220-gr-RN. I haven't found any 208gr bullets significantly cheaper than that, which would turn the decision into a financial one.

But....to keep the 208s subsonic you have to go with such a wimpy load of powder such as 10.8 of A1680. Not much punch to that round and now you have cycling issues. With the 220s, however, you can pack in more powder, more punch and still stay subsonic and be less likely to have cycling issues. If they made an A-max that weighed 220 or thereabouts, that was reasonably priced, it seems to me that that would be the winner hands down, but that not being the case, which is better folks?

I recently came to similar conclusions. The 220s function better with more powders in my gun, and do pack a little more punch.

[golfindia]

Cheapest 220's I have ever run across were Graf's seconds.

They rarely have them, they were ~$30 bucks last time I got them. You just have to keep an eye on their website and keep your fingers crossed

I can't tell the difference between them and Sierra, other than the shininess.

[pvanwagner]

Where are you guys finding cheap 208gr bullets? These 220s are around $27/100 https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/pro ... -220-gr-RN.

Maybe previously, but that link shows $35 not $27.

[teej]

Where are you guys finding cheap 208gr bullets? These 220s are around $27/100 https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/pro ... -220-gr-RN.

Maybe previously, but that link shows $35 not $27.

The link shows MSRP. I bought them at powder valley for $27 about 3 weeks ago.

[drooster]

Thanks all for yalls replies. did not mean to ignore the thread I started but I forget to click on send email notification. seems like the concensus is that as far as expansion, it does not matter between the two. It comes down to money and availability. To me if both were available at the same price, I suppose I would choose the 220s for 2 reasons. one, is that you can pack more powder into the case and thus more energy to the round - power factor I guess. two, is that it is going to cycle more reliably and afford you with more powder choices.
BTW, I am useing 10.8g of 1680 under the 208Amax at a COAL of 2.1. I tried 11g but some of those were supersonic so I went down to 10.8 just to make sure. And that is without a suppressor, so suppressed I am not sure if it would still be sub. Any comments on this?

[Sharkbite]

I dont think the can will change velocity much if any. Maybe 20 fps.

I guess that might matter if your load was right on the edge, but you'll get much less noise if you stay well below the SOS.

I like to run my subs between 975-1000

[drooster]

I dont think the can will change velocity much if any. Maybe 20 fps.

I guess that might matter if your load was right on the edge, but you'll get much less noise if you stay well below the SOS.

I like to run my subs between 975-1000

thanks for that. I really did not know that. I figured it was black and white. if you were sub your were quiet and if once you crossed that line....around 1125 fps, everything changed night and day.
but another thing that comes around to your point, that is, you are recommending not just being sub, but comfortably into the sub speeds, that there is all the more reason to go with the 220 vs the 208. I barely cycle now at abotu 1080fps with my 208s. if I go any slower, I bet I wont cycle. I will need more gas pressure and I am more likely to get with the 220s.

[Recoil737]

I dont think the can will change velocity much if any. Maybe 20 fps.

I guess that might matter if your load was right on the edge, but you'll get much less noise if you stay well below the SOS.

I like to run my subs between 975-1000

thanks for that. I really did not know that. I figured it was black and white. if you were sub your were quiet and if once you crossed that line....around 1125 fps, everything changed night and day.
but another thing that comes around to your point, that is, you are recommending not just being sub, but comfortably into the sub speeds, that there is all the more reason to go with the 220 vs the 208. I barely cycle now at abotu 1080fps with my 208s. if I go any slower, I bet I wont cycle. I will need more gas pressure and I am more likely to get with the 220s.

There definitely is a difference in how loud they are when running them on the ragged edge vs. backing them off to around 975-1,000. Even though your chronometer says your shot is under the speed of sound doesn't mean that some of the air moving around the bullet isn't being accelerated past the speed of sound. The curved ogive of the bullet accelerates the air over its' surface to fill the vacuum the bullet is trying to create on the trailing edge as it moves through the air. This can cause the air to exceed the sos and create small sonic booms.

In addition to and more likely though it that the bullet is entering a transonic region where drag increases dramatically as it gets right up to the edge of the speed of sound. This massive increase in drag also creates an increase in the sound created by the bullet. It is almost a tearing sound as if the air is being ripped apart as it is trying to get out of the way of the bullet but the air molecules can't move fast enough and they get bunched up creating a much larger drag profile with a bunch of turbulent and sometimes supersonic air behind this transonic cushion.

Backing the FPS down to around 1,000 gets the air flowing smoothly over the bullet which in turn makes it fly through the air much quieter.