What should I load based on this data?

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jtaylor996
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by jtaylor996 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:45 pm

Regaj wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:36 pm
jtaylor996 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:14 pm
Regaj wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:47 pm
No signs of pressure with the Barnes load? Quickload shows your 20 gr. of H110 making 63,684 psi and 2259 fps (that's assuming an OAL of 2.247 and a total case capacity of 24.3 gr of water). YMMV, of course.

Your 19.2 gr of LilGun behind the Speer 125 gr TNT specs fine (41,974 psi and 1991 fps, using an OAL of 2.260)

I agree with the other comments that velocity and SD numbers alone aren't that great for nailing down a "best" load. You need to first have a very specific goal. Everything follows from that.
Can you tell me what QL says about the 19.2gr and 19.6gr loads? My OAL is 2.250" in LC converted brass.

Happy to run those number for you. Before I do, you want to confirm which version of the Barnes .30 110gr. you're loading? Barnes makes a 300BLK-specific version of that bullet (SKU #30321) in addition to a generic .30-cal version (SKU #30358). When I mentioned before that your 20.0 load showed over-pressure in QL, that was using the 300BLK-specific version. Since you're not seeing pressure signs, I'm guessing you may be loading the generic version (which QL does not show over-pressure with 20.0gr of H110).

Let me know which SKU you're using and I'll run the numbers for your 19.2 and 19.6 loads.

For anyone interested, the difference between the two Barnes 110gr. bullets... the 300BLK-specific version is slightly longer.
I just checked and it's SKU 30321, the 300AAC specific version.

I loaded a ladder up to the barnes listed max 20.2 with no pressure signs on the primers. Thanks!

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Regaj
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by Regaj » Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:48 pm

Quickload analysis of your 19.2gr., 19.6gr., and 20gr., of H110 behind a Barnes 110gr TAC-TX...

Image

Image

Image

A few comments...
As you can see, the 19.2 load is nearly at maximum. 19.6 is already above maximum. And 20.0 is well above.

Notwithstanding that Barnes own load data goes to 20.2 of H110, I would proceed with caution.

Anything that reduces case capacity - thicker brass, bullet seated deeper, etc. - will increase pressure. So the maximum case capacity in water becomes a critical measurement. For these analytics I used 24.3 grn, which just happens to be the exact average I see in the Barnes brass I have on hand (and which presumably Barnes themselves use in their own testing). I have no idea what your LC brass capacity is. Given that you're heading out to where the ice gets very thin, I'd strongly encourage you to actually measure it. All you need is a child's medicine syringe, or an eye dropper. First weigh a fired case (with spent primer still in place), zero/tare that on your scale to subtract it... then slowly fill the fired case with water until it's dead-even with the case neck... with neither a concave dimple or a convex bubble at the end of the neck. Weigh it and you have the maximum case capacity. Do it for five pieces of brass and average the results.

I'm guessing, since you're not seeing pressure signs, that your LC brass has greater capacity than 24.3. But QL, like any software, is no better than the numbers and assumptions that you input. Case capacity is not something I'd want to guess at when running near maximum loads.

Good luck!

jtaylor996
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by jtaylor996 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:23 pm

Regaj wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:48 pm
Quickload analysis of your 19.2gr., 19.6gr., and 20gr., of H110 behind a Barnes 110gr TAC-TX...

A few comments...
As you can see, the 19.2 load is nearly at maximum. 19.6 is already above maximum. And 20.0 is well above.

Notwithstanding that Barnes own load data goes to 20.2 of H110, I would proceed with caution.

Anything that reduces case capacity - thicker brass, bullet seated deeper, etc. - will increase pressure. So the maximum case capacity in water becomes a critical measurement. For these analytics I used 24.3 grn, which just happens to be the exact average I see in the Barnes brass I have on hand (and which presumably Barnes themselves use in their own testing). I have no idea what your LC brass capacity is. Given that you're heading out to where the ice gets very thin, I'd strongly encourage you to actually measure it. All you need is a child's medicine syringe, or an eye dropper. First weigh a fired case (with spent primer still in place), zero/tare that on your scale to subtract it... then slowly fill the fired case with water until it's dead-even with the case neck... with neither a concave dimple or a convex bubble at the end of the neck. Weigh it and you have the maximum case capacity. Do it for five pieces of brass and average the results.

I'm guessing, since you're not seeing pressure signs, that your LC brass has greater capacity than 24.3. But QL, like any software, is no better than the numbers and assumptions that you input. Case capacity is not something I'd want to guess at when running near maximum loads.

Good luck!
I tested 5 cases on my chargemaster lite:
1. 24.0
2. 24.0
3. 24.3
4. 23.9
5. 23.9
AVG = 24.02gr

That would indicate higher pressure yet. These cases were in my "input" batch, meaning I'd converted them and formed them in an RCBS small base before trimming. I loaded used primers in them to measure. For final loading I would have run them through the sizer again, but I didn't do that here.

So I went and dug through my spent brass in my "to clean" pile. Luckily, I write with a sharpie what load is on each case when I do ladders. So I found the spent casings. I did several ladders lately, but only one with 20.2gr of anything. However, the others had other test ladders in those increments. So I can't tell which is which, but I can guarantee the brass from this ladder is in there.

Image

Right to left: 3x 19.2gr, 5x 20.0gr (2 are from this H110/tac-tx ladder, not sure which), 2x 20.2gr (100% certain from this ladder).

I don't see anything past minor flattening on the max load of 20.2, and nothing concerning at 20.0gr (that bottom one has glare, it looks the same as the other 20.0 primers by the eye).

Maybe others see something I'm missing in that picture?

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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by Regaj » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:07 pm

Roger that on the flare (rather than flattening) on the bottom center case. It's kind of hard to see in the picture, but from what I can tell, those cases don't look awful. Not great, either, but that may be simply because of oxidation and carbon.

The thing to bear in mind is that evidence of excess pressure on brass is a gross indicator. There's not a lot of precision to it... and by the time you can visually see anything, you're already over the line.

The weapon system matters, too. With a bolt gun or a revolver, you have the benefit of being able to feel how heavy the bolt lift is, or if there's any stickiness in the extraction. Not so much with a semi-auto.

If you're truly interested, and you have a high-resolution micrometer (not calipers), you can measure the amount of case expansion - before and after - at the web of the cartridge case. Even that method leaves a lot to be desired, though, both because it requires a very precise set of measurements and because the difference in case expansion (between a "good" load within pressure spec and a "bad" load over it) isn't large enough to be precise or obvious.

Having said all that, I certainly wouldn't belabor the pressure thing. Guns are like children... they're all a little bit different, even when they come from the same parents. There are lots of reasons why one gun runs hot and the next, not so much. One of the beauties of handloading is being able to tailor ammunition to those individual traits.

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dellet
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by dellet » Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:28 pm

What did the lot to lot variation show in Quickload?

Probably in the 55,000-75,000 range.

Then look at the difference between predicted and actual velocity, lower velocity generally means lower pressure.

Case volume needs to be adjusted with trim length.

Quickload does not adjust for neck tension or crimp.

Most importantly reading primers is like reading tea leaves, there is a certain amount of voodoo involved.
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jtaylor996
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by jtaylor996 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:00 pm

dellet wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:28 pm
Quickload does not adjust for neck tension or crimp.
And also not mentioned is chamber dimensions. If I was writing quickload, I'd base it of min SAAMI chamber specs to cover my ass for liability purposes. I bet this faxon gunner is looser than that. I've not gone beyond testing it with a field gauge (didn't fit, as intended), so all I know is it's not unsafely large.

The cases are dirty, I tested with a Nomad 30 attached. And I might be overgassed a hair. I set my superlative arms gas block to cycle subs and supers before the can got out of jail, and haven't adjust it since. With a can I bet I'm overgassed a bit.

jtaylor996
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by jtaylor996 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:07 pm

It's interesting Barnes shows other powders as compressed, but not the H110 loads.

Also, as you said, the lower velocity indicates lower pressure. Barnes chart says 2415 at max with H110. I got 2251 there. But I don't know Barnes' test barrel length.

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dellet
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by dellet » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:44 am

If Regaj will adjust the barrel length to 16”, it could then be compared to Barnes data.

As far as chamber dimension with Quickload, that is why they use case capacity of a fired round. There are predictable expansion/shrinkage factors.

The pressures and velocities generated are basically mid range. Lot to lot variation is +/- 10%.

If I load 20.2 grains of H110 into a fired case, set a bullet resting on top of the powder, the COL is 2.220” That same piece of brass after sizing and expanding the neck to seat the bullet has a COL of 2.227

LC converted
Case weighs 87.5 with primer trim length 1.362
Fired the case holds 25.4 grains water
Sized case 23.9.

Remington
Case weight 85.3 with primer trim length 1.357”
Fired case 25.5 grains water
20.2 grains H110 fired case 2.210”, Sized case 2.218

When entered into Quickload a COL of 2.220” would require a case capacity of 26.2. So this implies that either their numbers ore off for powder density, their water is lighter, I don’t get as good of pour when I drop my powder or other variables. This is why you can adjust parameters for more accuracy.

When I use the LC case above 20.2 grains @ 2.250”, density is 101.7, pressure 58,905 velocity 2412,16” 2226 in a 10.5”
When I adjust case capacity so that 2.220” is 100%, pressure is 56,588, velocity is 2396 fps. 16” Or 2209 in a10.5”

Lots of numbers that don’t mean much until you put them on target and have enough data points to adjust your inputs.
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Regaj
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by Regaj » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:10 am

A long, long time ago we'd spread out our various loading manuals on the bench, pages open to the caliber and bullet weight we were interested in, and extrapolate what we'd get - adjusting mentally between the different test platform they each used compared to our own gun. My old paper handload logs from that era had a column called "EV," for estimated velocity, which I would dutifully record.

Day before yesterday, while my wife was in the kitchen preparing our Thanksgiving meal, I went outside and shot the 25-round ladder series I had loaded the day before. Sitting there at the bench with a rifle pulled into my shoulder, smiling at the dual pleasures of the ascending numbers on the chronograph and the tidy little groups on paper, downrange.

There were no surprises.

As dellet mentioned, you can tweak Quickload. Once you've got it dialed in, you can sit in the comfort of your living room, while your wife watches some sappy romance on the Hallmark Channel, and run virtual loads long before you ever head out to the loading bench and actually begin weighing charges and pulling the press handle.

Nowadays, my handload log lives on my laptop, inside an Excel Workbook. And instead of "EV," it now has columns for "Predicted Velocity - 16" Barrel," "Predicted Pressure," and "Predicted Velocity - 7" Barrel" (Because, in 300BLK I have a 16" RARR and a 7" DDM4 PDW). When the load then gets shot, the numbers from the LabRadar go into the "Actual Velocity" column. And when that actual velocity sidles up to within kissing distance of the predicted velocity - which it usually does - you know you're on to something.

Pressure has always been the elephant in the room, the shadow behind everything we do. We could guess at it, based upon what the load manuals said. We could estimate how far from max we were. But we could never really know, until it was too late. And because the list of things that affect pressure is nearly endless - some of which will change from day to day and shooting session to shooting session - it shouldn't surprise us that so many shooters still come a cropper with those handloads they cooked up over the weekend.

Quickload, used in conjunction with an accurate chronograph, for the first time gives us the opportunity to see what pressures we're actually lighting off in that chamber just in front of our nose. I heartily recommend it.

Here is the Barnes max load of 20.2 gr., of H110, out of a 16" barrel.

Image

jtaylor996
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Re: What should I load based on this data?

Post by jtaylor996 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:17 pm

This is all fascinating. I haven't used windows in like 2 decades, so it'll be a while before I mess with QuickLoad myself.

Back to the original post, I think I'll load up some 20.0gr and 19.2 barnes loads, and see what groups better. I don't think I'm too concerned about the pressure at this point.

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