Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

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SIMJOSH1
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by SIMJOSH1 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:57 pm

eh, IMO that's good info for every reloader on every bullet... That way you could play with it and know definitively where the max OAL is.

Some bullets could have such a long load length they wouldn't fit in a magazine while others you might have that issue.

So.. better safe than sorry. Regardless I think once you find out the best powder load you should play slightly with seating depth to obtain maximum accuracy. H110 / w296 likes the bullet touching the powder.

So according to Dellet to find the seating depth he'll take a fired cartridge (from your barrel) then fill it with "X" charge weight. Put hte bullet on top then measure the BTO - Base to ogive.

You got a hornady comparator or similar or are you going off of OAL measurement's only?
- I'd look into the Hornady Comparator or alternative's as this will get you a bit more consistency out of your loads. Ensuring the Ogive is the exact same distance from the lands on every bullet you load. VS loading by over all length - you may have some bullets closer or further away... only a couple thousandths but still a couple thousandths.

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gomeybear
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 pm

SIMJOSH1 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:57 pm
eh, IMO that's good info for every reloader on every bullet... That way you could play with it and know definitively where the max OAL is.

Some bullets could have such a long load length they wouldn't fit in a magazine while others you might have that issue.

So.. better safe than sorry. Regardless I think once you find out the best powder load you should play slightly with seating depth to obtain maximum accuracy. H110 / w296 likes the bullet touching the powder.

So according to Dellet to find the seating depth he'll take a fired cartridge (from your barrel) then fill it with "X" charge weight. Put hte bullet on top then measure the BTO - Base to ogive.

You got a hornady comparator or similar or are you going off of OAL measurement's only?
- I'd look into the Hornady Comparator or alternative's as this will get you a bit more consistency out of your loads. Ensuring the Ogive is the exact same distance from the lands on every bullet you load. VS loading by over all length - you may have some bullets closer or further away... only a couple thousandths but still a couple thousandths.
No comparator as of yet. So just for clarification, case length seems less critical when differences are marginal, but base to ogive is really where you want consistency across loads?

On seating to the charge level (Dellet’s method), what would take precedence, making sure bullet doesnt reach lands (nosler link I posted) or seating bullet right at/on the surface of the powder charge?

SIMJOSH1
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by SIMJOSH1 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:14 pm

gomeybear wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 pm
No comparator as of yet. So just for clarification, case length seems less critical when differences are marginal, but base to ogive is really where you want consistency across loads?

On seating to the charge level (Dellet’s method), what would take precedence, making sure bullet doesnt reach lands (nosler link I posted) or seating bullet right at/on the surface of the powder charge?
eHH..

You never really want a bullet in the lands... like jammed inside which would be hard to do on blackout loading to mag length.

- - Without measuring your chamber like the link from nosler. Using published data's COAL should be safe.

When you got a 1 shot bolt gun and want extreme accuracy. You measure the load then set bullet 0.010-0.020 or so and you could potentially get better accuracy - due to less bullet jump to the lands. (this does increase pressure tho. So you cant just change a bullet from 2.10 to 2.25 (mag length) and think that's fine because your still off lands.) This would need to be worked up again if your near max published charge though...

Now.. AR15 I'm assuming ?

Specifically h110/w296 - This powder likes a bullet resting on top of it. So in other words- You could potentially gain accuracy by shortening your COAL from published. It's all in what you want or what your looking for. You might luck out and load a bullet @ published with a mild load and get GREAT accuracy.. or it might suck.

So with your load of I think 17.8 / 18.0 . Take a fired cartridge and put 17.8 or 18gn's of h110 (make sure there's a FIRED primer in there not a live!)
- Put the bullet on top and measure your COAL since you don't have a comparator. Once you have this measurement. Take 20 primed / prep'd cases and load up everything with 17.8 or 18.. whichever was used prior.
Take 10 and load to published data- like you've been doing
Take 10 and load at whatever your COAL was with the bullet resting on the powder in a fired case.

I'd be interested to see what the COAL is for you. Book says 2.10" for COAL and that's what a couple people have said worked best for them. So changing it might not affect anything.

IF you can get sub moa at 100 yards I wouldn't worry about it tho.

Just go slow, ask questions and make sure you double check and verify information before proceeding. Have fun!
_Blackouts been the most fun for me so far...
223 - really only a couple bullets I wanted to mess with.
270 - really only 1 bullet

300bk's just got so many options or at least I feel like there are since you can do light supers, heavy suppers, lighter subs, and heavier subs.

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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:41 pm

SIMJOSH1 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:14 pm
gomeybear wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 pm
No comparator as of yet. So just for clarification, case length seems less critical when differences are marginal, but base to ogive is really where you want consistency across loads?

On seating to the charge level (Dellet’s method), what would take precedence, making sure bullet doesnt reach lands (nosler link I posted) or seating bullet right at/on the surface of the powder charge?
eHH..

You never really want a bullet in the lands... like jammed inside which would be hard to do on blackout loading to mag length.

- - Without measuring your chamber like the link from nosler. Using published data's COAL should be safe.

When you got a 1 shot bolt gun and want extreme accuracy. You measure the load then set bullet 0.010-0.020 or so and you could potentially get better accuracy - due to less bullet jump to the lands. (this does increase pressure tho. So you cant just change a bullet from 2.10 to 2.25 (mag length) and think that's fine because your still off lands.) This would need to be worked up again if your near max published charge though...

Now.. AR15 I'm assuming ?

Specifically h110/w296 - This powder likes a bullet resting on top of it. So in other words- You could potentially gain accuracy by shortening your COAL from published. It's all in what you want or what your looking for. You might luck out and load a bullet @ published with a mild load and get GREAT accuracy.. or it might suck.

So with your load of I think 17.8 / 18.0 . Take a fired cartridge and put 17.8 or 18gn's of h110 (make sure there's a FIRED primer in there not a live!)
- Put the bullet on top and measure your COAL since you don't have a comparator. Once you have this measurement. Take 20 primed / prep'd cases and load up everything with 17.8 or 18.. whichever was used prior.
Take 10 and load to published data- like you've been doing
Take 10 and load at whatever your COAL was with the bullet resting on the powder in a fired case.

I'd be interested to see what the COAL is for you. Book says 2.10" for COAL and that's what a couple people have said worked best for them. So changing it might not affect anything.

IF you can get sub moa at 100 yards I wouldn't worry about it tho.

Just go slow, ask questions and make sure you double check and verify information before proceeding. Have fun!
_Blackouts been the most fun for me so far...
223 - really only a couple bullets I wanted to mess with.
270 - really only 1 bullet

300bk's just got so many options or at least I feel like there are since you can do light supers, heavy suppers, lighter subs, and heavier subs.
Super informative, thanks again! Yes, AR-15.

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rebel
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by rebel » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:49 pm

It should end up 2.11 OAL. That depends on brass volume.
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gomeybear
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:44 pm

rebel wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:49 pm
It should end up 2.11 OAL. That depends on brass volume.
What about base to ogive for 125sst? Just out of curiosity for when I pick up a comparator.
SIMJOSH1 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:14 pm

Take 10 and load at whatever your COAL was with the bullet resting on the powder in a fired case.
Whats the best way of knowing when the bullet is resting on the powder? Hard to know when exactly it makes contact. Maybe Ill have to open the case mouth to make sure it sits without too much neck tension. Im finding myself forcing the bullet down to get it there, which makes me think Im compressing powder a bit when I do it like that, skewing my perception of when bullet contacts powder, thus messing with a good measurement.

Also, if base to ogive is what matters, then ogive to lands is more important than bullet tip to lands.... This logic correct?

One last thing, if you’re trying to get consistency between base to ogive measurements between loads, it would seem a micrometer die is very necessary, right? Because there could be some deviation in OAL when bullet seating. Making those adjustments to a non-micrometer die would be guess work and very tedious, whereas the micrometer die allows 1 precise fine adjustment without having to mess with coarse adjustment screw and have a consistent base to ogive length between each load.

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rebel
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by rebel » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:31 am

Ask yourself this question - what does the tip of the bullet touch in the chamber?
Which part engages rifling?
OAL concerns whether it will fit in the magazine.

Now,if you really want to get deep - let's make up a load here. Subsonic. BOLT GUN. I have a 200 gr all copper bullet loaded with 10 gr. of Powder X. I have made up a dummy round by taking a once fired case, barely sizing the end of the neck so that there is a bit of tension. I insert the bullet into the case long ( I should add that a sharpie pen colored bullet helps with this. )

I then chamber the round, letting the rifling engage the ogive and pushing the bullet back into the case.
Carefully extract the round.
Now we have a chamber length, base to ogive. Some will argue that this jams the bullet slightly. I tend to agree.
So we take our measurement with a comparitor and note that the marks the rifling made on the bullet and where it occurs on those marks. ( probably toward the top of those marks )
Your rifling marks look like this - II
Image

So now we know chamber length. How we use this info? Back to our subsonic, bolt gun load.
I set my die so the bullet is .010 off the lands. I fire it and hear an audible crack and note my speed on the chrony. Say it's 1100 fps second. We are close but to fast. Do I drop down a few tenths on the charge? You could. I Know I have a bit of space between powder and the bullet so I decide to back off CBTO by .005. Now I fire and my speed has dropped to subsonic levels.
Maybe I am right on the edge so I adjust my powder charge down a tad just to maintain a good temp margin.
The closer to thelands, the more pressure you have. The byproduct of pressure is speed.

In many shooting disciplines jamming a bullet is desirable for the best accuracy. Benchrest shooters have been known to jam into the lands ,007 to .010. Old blackpowder cartridge match shooters placed the bullet in the chamber and the powder filled cartridge behind it and used the action to place the bullet in the brass. Yes, this was done on the vertical. Pressure is not necessarily our enemy. It can be manipulated for ultimate precision and speed.
Hope this doesn't bake your noodle to much.
You can't beat the mountain, pilgrim. Mountains got its own way.

SIMJOSH1
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by SIMJOSH1 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:40 am

gomeybear wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:44 pm
rebel wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:49 pm
It should end up 2.11 OAL. That depends on brass volume.
What about base to ogive for 125sst? Just out of curiosity for when I pick up a comparator.
SIMJOSH1 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:14 pm

Take 10 and load at whatever your COAL was with the bullet resting on the powder in a fired case.
Whats the best way of knowing when the bullet is resting on the powder? Hard to know when exactly it makes contact. Maybe Ill have to open the case mouth to make sure it sits without too much neck tension. Im finding myself forcing the bullet down to get it there, which makes me think Im compressing powder a bit when I do it like that, skewing my perception of when bullet contacts powder, thus messing with a good measurement.

Also, if base to ogive is what matters, then ogive to lands is more important than bullet tip to lands.... This logic correct?

One last thing, if you’re trying to get consistency between base to ogive measurements between loads, it would seem a micrometer die is very necessary, right? Because there could be some deviation in OAL when bullet seating. Making those adjustments to a non-micrometer die would be guess work and very tedious, whereas the micrometer die allows 1 precise fine adjustment without having to mess with coarse adjustment screw and have a consistent base to ogive length between each load.
To figure out oal with bullet on powder, take fired case with spent primer, dunno powder charge, place bullet then measure.

Base to ogive is measured after seating one bullet to oal. So measure 2.1" oal - bar to tip... Then get comparator abs measure bto to find ogive to base.. And ensure subsequent rounds are the same

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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:13 pm

Would seating bullet lower in the case increase pressure assuming charges are the same or decrease pressure? Another words do I have to worry about working back up in charge weight when seating bullet lower like you would seating it longer?

Also, which method works best typically with 125 sst and other fat bullets, making sure bullet is resting on powder charge or minimizing jump to rifling? They impact each other; so, seems like you cant have it both ways maybe?

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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by dellet » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:01 pm

gomeybear wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 pm
SIMJOSH1 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:57 pm
eh, IMO that's good info for every reloader on every bullet... That way you could play with it and know definitively where the max OAL is.

Some bullets could have such a long load length they wouldn't fit in a magazine while others you might have that issue.

So.. better safe than sorry. Regardless I think once you find out the best powder load you should play slightly with seating depth to obtain maximum accuracy. H110 / w296 likes the bullet touching the powder.

So according to Dellet to find the seating depth he'll take a fired cartridge (from your barrel) then fill it with "X" charge weight. Put hte bullet on top then measure the BTO - Base to ogive.

You got a hornady comparator or similar or are you going off of OAL measurement's only?
- I'd look into the Hornady Comparator or alternative's as this will get you a bit more consistency out of your loads. Ensuring the Ogive is the exact same distance from the lands on every bullet you load. VS loading by over all length - you may have some bullets closer or further away... only a couple thousandths but still a couple thousandths.
No comparator as of yet. So just for clarification, case length seems less critical when differences are marginal, but base to ogive is really where you want consistency across loads?

On seating to the charge level (Dellet’s method), what would take precedence, making sure bullet doesnt reach lands (nosler link I posted) or seating bullet right at/on the surface of the powder charge?
Think about that one for a minute.

Then understand that there are always exceptions to every rule of loading.

If you drop a charge, seat the bullet on the powder and it wont fit in the chamber, What is most important?

A lot off this stuff becomes cool jargon with no meaning, to hide a lack of knowledge. It does not matter how accurately you measure something if you have no idea of the reason you measure it. Base to ogive falls into that category, along with owning a comparator.

For precise shooting, consistency is king. Starting with how you wear your underwear, to how you hang your target. Change something your groups will change.

The purpose of measuring at the bullets ogive really has absolutely nothing to do with finding where it will hit the lands :shock: I'll add a few more for emphasis :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

It's about getting the bullet seated the same length every time. If it was about touching the lands, you could measure it with one bullet and it would be the same for every other bullet of the same caliber ever made in that barrel.

Don't have a fancy tool?
guess what, if you have a caliper and reloading components, you have all you need. It just takes some thought.

Grab a case run it through the sizing die without the expander. Trim that case to and even .000 or .005 to make the math easier. That is just as accurate as any Hornady tool.

Grab 25 of any bullet out of the same box, measure and sort for overall length.

Now take the above case and use whatever length that is to "zero" your caliper. If it's digital it will do it for you, if it's dial learn to add and subtract.

Measure the sorted bullet groups by inverting the case over the tip, this will give you a bullet base to ogive length. This will show why this is the preferred method of measuring. I would not be surprised to see overall length vary .020" and base to ogive measure .002", depending on the quality or construction of bullet.

You can do the same with loaded rounds and find the exact same discrepancies.

The way jacketed bullets are made causes this problem. You can't draw the jacket over the lead core exactly the same every time. The lead and jacket variations compound so weight is inconsistent bullet to bullet. One way to correct that is to draw out the nose/tip. The base to ogive will be very consistent, but not the length.

Solids cut on a lathe do not really have this issue because of tighter manufacturing tolerances and methods.

Tipped bullets are somehwere in between

Next up is get rid of the notion that a comparator is a precision measuring tool. (that calls for a few more of these guys) :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
It is a Comparing tool that uses a measurement. It's a limit gauge that attaches a number, instead of pass/fail like a Sheridan Gauge. Instead of just knowing this is shorter than that, you can attach a number to it using a scale.

What a comparator does, is try to tell you where two cones of different angles/diameters will meet, by using a third diameter with a third angle. :roll:

Great for a repeatable point of reference, but far from a precise measurement.

Now after all of that, Why use a comparator?

Simply put, it makes things easier, maybe even safer.

Take the above bullets that vary .020". You happened to garb the shortest one in the box, found the lands with it and load the rest of the box .010" off the lands based on Cartridge Overall Length by adjusting your die to get the same length. A certain number will be .010" off and a certain number will be .010" in. Depending on powder used, that could be a 5-15,000 pound pressure spike.

The reason that happened, is that the seating stem does not seat on the tip. It's fourth cone of a fourth diameter and every bullet will be seated to the same depth, based on where those two new diameters touch.

A comparator and measuring off the ogive, is just a number and a buzz word, unless you understand why it's done and how it works.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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