Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

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gomeybear
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear »

ThreeHundredBlackout wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:27 am
If you polish the hornady expander like dellet said and have the die set correctly it will work well and cost less than buying the new dies you have now.
I haven’t polished the hornady expander yet. I’ll have to work on that.

Yes, I tried the other seating stem that came in the box and it still caused a ring around bullet.

I agree with Dellet that one of the culprits is the neck is being sized too tight. But after fiddling with the expander I wasn’t able to decrease neck tension by much; only increased diameter about .001. Im going to continue fiddling with it some more tomorrow.

Nobody here is of the opinion that the bearing surface on the seating stem might have too aggressive an angle?
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dellet
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by dellet »

20X11 is of the opinion that the seating stem is the problem and said so in the first response.

I am of the opinion, I need more information to form an opinion or need the die in hand.

Rebel is frustrated because there are people trying to help, but need very specific information, that you will not provide.

Bangbang quit trying to help.

You have a problem with a seating stem crushing a bullet, that happens for one of two reasons.

The stem is bad
There is too much neck tension

If the stem is bad, you will cure it with the new seater.

If the tension is too much, two things will likely happen

You will still crush bullets
You will ruin the fancy new seating die

If the new die stops crushing bullets, you won’t no why the problem stopped. There are two possible outcomes.

You never have another problem
You ruin the die over time and think Forster makes a poor product.

If the new seating die does not correct the problem, you are exactly where you are right now, Trying to figure out why the sizing die is making bullets hard to seat. You have two choices.

Wait for the seating die to arrive and hope for the best
Figure out the actual problem so you don’t ruin the new die.

If that seems like circular thinking you’re right. You now have two more choices.

Analyze the problem and solve it. Learn cause and effect in the loading process
Try a bunch of stuff until the symptom goes away, and hope you solve the problem.

The two above choices are possibly the most important one you may ever make in your hand loading career.

One will keep you safe and produce quality ammo.
The other potentially kills you or someone else.

Too much neck tension, enough to crush a bullet, will cause chamber pressure to rise dramatically. What’s causing your specific problem?

Bad seater?
Neck tension?
Operator error?
Bad batch of bullets with soft jackets?

Sorry I wasn’t more help or able to solve the problem, but it was for one of two reasons. (Seeing a pattern yet?)

I don’t know what I’m doing
I don’t have the information I need.

Please post results of the new die.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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rebel
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by rebel »

gomeybear wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:07 pm
rebel wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:17 pm You have been offered expert advice. Now you are ignoring it. Don't ask any more questions, just keep throwing money at your perceived problem. The micrometer seating die will not solve the problem if you don't understand what caused it. Seen it, been there , done that. Go your own way son. If your still interested at solving your initial problem, answer the questions asked. Then you might get some knowledge.
You’re a bit sensitive, Sir. You seem to not read folks full posts either. I followed most if not all the advice given and it mostly eliminated the indentation ring and is now a faint ring showing up with no indentation; I appreciate that from y’all. I seem to remember you chiming in once on my other thread, and it was the least valuable information on the subject that I received from these threads I opened.

Anyways.... thanks again to all and I’ll report back if there is any difference in the ring with the Forster seating die. If there isn’t any difference in faint ring mark, well I ended up with a better seating die in the Forster anyways.
Not sensitive, Crotchety would be more correct. My impatience derives from all the knowledge that has flowed through this forum over the years and is in the written word, I guess I shouldn't expect you or anyone else to search for it.
One tip I can give you, zero your new micrometer seater to the bullet you load the most of, write down the settings for other bullets you load for reference. Here is hoping that is of some value. As always, if you don't find it so, ignore it. My feelings will not be hurt at all.
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20X11
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by 20X11 »

Thanks for dragging me back into this one Dellet!!! ROFLMAO
1. My initial opinion/suggestion was based on my personal experience loading for 458 SOCOM with Redding dies.
2. The 458 SOCOM requires a considerably greater amount of force to seat ANY bullet than 300blk due to the increased surface area.
3. Before contacting Redding, I verified the inside neck diameter my sizing die was producing.
4. My cases were "new" brass, sized, chamfered, and deburred.
5. Due to the force required to seat 458 SOCOM bullets, I always use neck lube on the cases.
6. Upon contacting Redding with an inquiry describing the issue and exact bullet I was having an issue with, and sending a picture (which looked remarkably like the OPs picture) Redding suggested they send the new seating stem. That was THEIR diagnosis, not mine.
7. The solution Redding offered SOLVED the issue for me.
8. Since the solution I have loaded and fired hundreds of 458 SOCOM rounds loaded in ladders with very consistent results.
9. My rounds do NOT have excessive neck tension (for a 458 SOCOM) and I do not see pressure issues in my gun with "published" load data.

Take my shared experience for what it is worth to you.
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gomeybear
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear »

Hope Im not causing too much ruckus here, Gents. I definitely know Im a novice compared to lots of folks here. Thanks for the patience.

What’s the easiest way to get this Hornady Sizer to size the neck at approx. .305” to .306”? Is polishing the expander the only way? Ive played around with adjusting it in the die and to no avail, its sizing the neck closer to .304”.

If I seat a bullet and the pull it out of the case, subsequently re-seat another bullet in that same case it looks like the ring is completely gone that way. So it’s definitely too much neck tension. Obviously, I wouldn’t want to be doing that for every case I load; so I have to get the expander set up right.

If polishing is the only way, whats the best method for doing so?
20X11
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by 20X11 »

If your expander ball is too small, the die manufacturer should replace it. Again, another recommendation to contact the manufacturer.

No ruckus at all.
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dellet
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by dellet »

Making the ball smaller by polishing it will only make it worse.

What is the diameter of the ball now?

What is the brass and how many times fired?

What is the neck INside/outside diameter after sizing?

What is the neck inside diameter after seating and pulling a bullet?

Are you chamfering the inside of the neck before seating the bullet?

This would also be helpful

Remove the expander completely, size a case and measure inside outside.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
gomeybear
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear »

Responses in asterisks, dellet.

What is the diameter of the ball now? *Approx .308” at its thickest

What is the brass and how many times fired? *Once fired LC 556 converted to blackout

What is the neck INside/outside diameter after sizing? *Still gotta get these dimensions

What is the neck inside diameter after seating and pulling a bullet? *.306”

Are you chamfering the inside of the neck before seating the bullet? *Started doing this and it helped a bit more.

Remove the expander completely, size a case and measure inside outside. *ID came out to .302; so made it tighten up more

Im going to post follow up pictures of how my loads look now. I noticed that there was a copper ring that would fall of the bullet when seating (i.e. brass jacket ring); this is before incorporating y’alls suggested approaches. So the bullet was definitely being altered then. Now Im not having that issue anymore after incorporating suggestions. The ring I have is so faint now that you could only see it in certain lighting and its not shedding that copper ring any longer when seating. Problem solved?

*Edit - funny enough my camera isn’t picking up the ring any longer its so faint and only seen in certain lighting. Would it be OCD to continue messing with it? Im leaning towards leaving it alone myself.
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dellet
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by dellet »

Most likely your biggest problem is not getting a good chamfer inside the neck. That edge is scraping the bullet.

The .302 diameter after sizing, before expanding, is a bit small for my liking, but it’s not unheard of. The expander should open it up to .304-5. Part of that is the brass you are using is probably not annealed. It would be good to have that number

Flat base bullets can be a little harder to seat since they don’t have a taper. That’s why it’s important to have a good chamfer to create a tapered neck.

Your numbers aren’t terrible, it’s more likely that it’s operator error. There a a couple things that can make it easier. Squeaky clean brass makes it harder to seat a bullet. You don’t really want a liquid type lube on a bullet, dry lubes are basically graphite. You can run a pencil around the inside of the neck in a pinch to see if it helps.

One question that did not occur to me before, did you convert these or buy them?

If you bought them, are you running them through your die before seating? You should be.

If you are converting them, it’s helpful to run them through the die twice. The second time after they have set for awhile, not twice in a row.

Sounds like you’re gaining on it. OCD is not a bad thing in handloading, it’s called attention to detail.

I need to add that along with the chamfer on the inside, the burr left from trimming also need to be removed from the outside, other wise you can get strange crimps, or not chambering correctly.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
gomeybear
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Re: Ring around bullet when using hornady bullet seating die

Post by gomeybear »

These were purchased actually. I wasnt running them through sizing die before y’all heightened my OCD (enlightenment me that is, haha) with these informative threads and then I started resizing them. As your saying, dellet, the chamfer is the biggest difference that I wasnt doing before that Im doing now; this has made the biggest difference when seating these 125 ssts. I can feel the amount of effort to get the bullet seated has dramatically decreased since incorporating the chamfer and then of course a debur.

Im mostly chalking it up to me not adding a chamfer to the cases that was causing my issue of that heavy ring on the bullet. Seems like it is pretty much negligible mark now that is very faint.

Thanks for the help and I will get you those other numbers so that I can fine tune a bit more. For now Im going to accuracy test these tomorrow. Yall might laugh, but this is my PSA 8.5” 300 blackout cheap build so will see how it does. I dropped a hog with it over the holidays some Magtech subsonics at about 80 or so yards.
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