Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

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rebel
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by rebel »

dellet wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:25 pm
SIMJOSH1 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:23 pm
dellet wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:47 am Please post a photo of the bullet
Image

Best I could do atm. One i get my pc logged into the forum I'll try and get a direct picture in posting
I don’t have one in possession so some of these numbers will be a reasonable guesses. I can tell you for a fact that bullet can be loaded longer than mag length. We’ll look at some numbers anyway.

For perspective the bullet is 1.300” long and is basically what would be referred to as a “bore rider”.

The whole nose section will ride the lands down the bore. The diameter of that section is 300”.

The bearing surface of the bullet basically has a shoulder where it transitions to the nose, that is where it will first contact the lands, and where a comparator would be used to measure.

Below that is a pressure groove. It’s not a canalure, but could probably serve that function if you really wanted and chamber would allow. It is .308 diameter and will be a bearing surface in the barrel. It will be .250-300” long.

The nose Is about half the length of the bullet.

If the nose is half the bullets length of 300”. It’s .650” long.

So my if guess is even anywhere near accurate, the case 1.355” plus .650” for the nose plus .250” for the first half of the bearing surface is 2.255” crimped in the pressure groove.

Now the question is will it jam.

Specs for the chamber is 1.7something bolt face to lands. That is what we look for measuring base to ogive. Depending on nose profile it can be +/- .050”.

Case length 1.355 plus bearing surface length 300” (using worst case) is 1.655” . Probably still not hitting the lands.

It would be nice to hear from Bob567 to say yes or no if thats how he loaded his rounds.

If one of you guys has a chamber problem because that bullet can or can’t be loaded to 2.50”, it ain’t Bob.

If I was Bob567, and wanted to use CFE with that bullet, I would drop 11 grains in and seat the bullet down in the powder.

The only other thing I’ll mention is that the bullet in the picture looks like it was destroyed while seating. A heavy ring on the nose from the seating stem.

It’s a lot easier to just measure and do correctly with gauges, but there are always more ways to figure thing s out. I’ll be interested to see how close my numbers are.

For what it’s worth, Maker loads that bullet to 2.100”
I saw that as well but failed to comment. I think that would severely damage accuracy and, more so, expansion capability.
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dellet
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by dellet »

rebel wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:39 pm
dellet wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:25 pm
SIMJOSH1 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:23 pm

Image

Best I could do atm. One i get my pc logged into the forum I'll try and get a direct picture in posting
I don’t have one in possession so some of these numbers will be a reasonable guesses. I can tell you for a fact that bullet can be loaded longer than mag length. We’ll look at some numbers anyway.

For perspective the bullet is 1.300” long and is basically what would be referred to as a “bore rider”.

The whole nose section will ride the lands down the bore. The diameter of that section is 300”.

The bearing surface of the bullet basically has a shoulder where it transitions to the nose, that is where it will first contact the lands, and where a comparator would be used to measure.

Below that is a pressure groove. It’s not a canalure, but could probably serve that function if you really wanted and chamber would allow. It is .308 diameter and will be a bearing surface in the barrel. It will be .250-300” long.

The nose Is about half the length of the bullet.

If the nose is half the bullets length of 300”. It’s .650” long.

So my if guess is even anywhere near accurate, the case 1.355” plus .650” for the nose plus .250” for the first half of the bearing surface is 2.255” crimped in the pressure groove.

Now the question is will it jam.

Specs for the chamber is 1.7something bolt face to lands. That is what we look for measuring base to ogive. Depending on nose profile it can be +/- .050”.

Case length 1.355 plus bearing surface length 300” (using worst case) is 1.655” . Probably still not hitting the lands.

It would be nice to hear from Bob567 to say yes or no if thats how he loaded his rounds.

If one of you guys has a chamber problem because that bullet can or can’t be loaded to 2.50”, it ain’t Bob.

If I was Bob567, and wanted to use CFE with that bullet, I would drop 11 grains in and seat the bullet down in the powder.

The only other thing I’ll mention is that the bullet in the picture looks like it was destroyed while seating. A heavy ring on the nose from the seating stem.

It’s a lot easier to just measure and do correctly with gauges, but there are always more ways to figure thing s out. I’ll be interested to see how close my numbers are.

For what it’s worth, Maker loads that bullet to 2.100”
I saw that as well but failed to comment. I think that would severely damage accuracy and, more so, expansion capability.
More important as per this conversation, it will bulge the nose and cause chambering problems.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by SIMJOSH1 »

dellet wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:25 pm
SIMJOSH1 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:23 pm
dellet wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:47 am Please post a photo of the bullet
Image

Best I could do atm. One i get my pc logged into the forum I'll try and get a direct picture in posting
I don’t have one in possession so some of these numbers will be a reasonable guesses. I can tell you for a fact that bullet can be loaded longer than mag length. We’ll look at some numbers anyway.

For perspective the bullet is 1.300” long and is basically what would be referred to as a “bore rider”.

The whole nose section will ride the lands down the bore. The diameter of that section is 300”.

The bearing surface of the bullet basically has a shoulder where it transitions to the nose, that is where it will first contact the lands, and where a comparator would be used to measure.

Below that is a pressure groove. It’s not a canalure, but could probably serve that function if you really wanted and chamber would allow. It is .308 diameter and will be a bearing surface in the barrel. It will be .250-300” long.

The nose Is about half the length of the bullet.

If the nose is half the bullets length of 300”. It’s .650” long.

So my if guess is even anywhere near accurate, the case 1.355” plus .650” for the nose plus .250” for the first half of the bearing surface is 2.255” crimped in the pressure groove.

Now the question is will it jam.

Specs for the chamber is 1.7something bolt face to lands. That is what we look for measuring base to ogive. Depending on nose profile it can be +/- .050”.

Case length 1.355 plus bearing surface length 300” (using worst case) is 1.655” . Probably still not hitting the lands.

It would be nice to hear from Bob567 to say yes or no if thats how he loaded his rounds.

If one of you guys has a chamber problem because that bullet can or can’t be loaded to 2.50”, it ain’t Bob.

If I was Bob567, and wanted to use CFE with that bullet, I would drop 11 grains in and seat the bullet down in the powder.

The only other thing I’ll mention is that the bullet in the picture looks like it was destroyed while seating. A heavy ring on the nose from the seating stem.

It’s a lot easier to just measure and do correctly with gauges, but there are always more ways to figure thing s out. I’ll be interested to see how close my numbers are.

For what it’s worth, Maker loads that bullet to 2.100”
Max BTO was 1.755 I believe.. That's at a coal of 2.145. What I measured it with a homemade headspace gauge.

Picture linked is just what I had on hand. Think I pulled it twice which is why it's all beefed up.
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by SIMJOSH1 »

rebel wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:39 pm
dellet wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:25 pm
SIMJOSH1 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:23 pm

Image

Best I could do atm. One i get my pc logged into the forum I'll try and get a direct picture in posting
I don’t have one in possession so some of these numbers will be a reasonable guesses. I can tell you for a fact that bullet can be loaded longer than mag length. We’ll look at some numbers anyway.

For perspective the bullet is 1.300” long and is basically what would be referred to as a “bore rider”.

The whole nose section will ride the lands down the bore. The diameter of that section is 300”.

The bearing surface of the bullet basically has a shoulder where it transitions to the nose, that is where it will first contact the lands, and where a comparator would be used to measure.

Below that is a pressure groove. It’s not a canalure, but could probably serve that function if you really wanted and chamber would allow. It is .308 diameter and will be a bearing surface in the barrel. It will be .250-300” long.

The nose Is about half the length of the bullet.

If the nose is half the bullets length of 300”. It’s .650” long.

So my if guess is even anywhere near accurate, the case 1.355” plus .650” for the nose plus .250” for the first half of the bearing surface is 2.255” crimped in the pressure groove.

Now the question is will it jam.

Specs for the chamber is 1.7something bolt face to lands. That is what we look for measuring base to ogive. Depending on nose profile it can be +/- .050”.

Case length 1.355 plus bearing surface length 300” (using worst case) is 1.655” . Probably still not hitting the lands.

It would be nice to hear from Bob567 to say yes or no if thats how he loaded his rounds.

If one of you guys has a chamber problem because that bullet can or can’t be loaded to 2.50”, it ain’t Bob.

If I was Bob567, and wanted to use CFE with that bullet, I would drop 11 grains in and seat the bullet down in the powder.

The only other thing I’ll mention is that the bullet in the picture looks like it was destroyed while seating. A heavy ring on the nose from the seating stem.

It’s a lot easier to just measure and do correctly with gauges, but there are always more ways to figure thing s out. I’ll be interested to see how close my numbers are.

For what it’s worth, Maker loads that bullet to 2.100”
I saw that as well but failed to comment. I think that would severely damage accuracy and, more so, expansion capability.
That's a trash bullet that's pictured for the earlier request.. I assumed it wouldn't need to be"mint" to determine profile or bearing surface.
Pulled twice, once to figure out if seating a bullet deeper once crimped helped the revival process. Again to see if it did.. Figured out seating further after crimp just bungs up the bullet two different ways
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by SIMJOSH1 »

Also bullets loaded to mag length will not jam.. I made that oopsy already why I mentioned it to OP.

I had es Numbers in the 200-250s loading to 2.24/5

Once I brought it into the 2.13ish area es fell into the 60-100
(Old powder)

I took that as a bullet getting wedged into the chamber on one round and deeper into the case on the next, etc.
But they will shoot fine and give great accuracy at 2.13 or 2.25...
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by dellet »

SIMJOSH1 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:31 pm Also bullets loaded to mag length will not jam.. I made that oopsy already why I mentioned it to OP.

I had es Numbers in the 200-250s loading to 2.24/5

Once I brought it into the 2.13ish area es fell into the 60-100
(Old powder)

I took that as a bullet getting wedged into the chamber on one round and deeper into the case on the next, etc.
But they will shoot fine and give great accuracy at 2.13 or 2.25...
I’m completely confused.

You say max length for your chamber is 2.145”, but that they will not jam at mag length which is 2.260”. You also warn the OP that his are probably jamming at least .099” into the lands at 2.250”.

Which is correct?
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by SIMJOSH1 »

dellet wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:05 am
SIMJOSH1 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:31 pm Also bullets loaded to mag length will not jam.. I made that oopsy already why I mentioned it to OP.

I had es Numbers in the 200-250s loading to 2.24/5

Once I brought it into the 2.13ish area es fell into the 60-100
(Old powder)

I took that as a bullet getting wedged into the chamber on one round and deeper into the case on the next, etc.
But they will shoot fine and give great accuracy at 2.13 or 2.25...
I’m completely confused.

You say max length for your chamber is 2.145”, but that they will not jam at mag length which is 2.260”. You also warn the OP that his are probably jamming at least .099” into the lands at 2.250”.

Which is correct?

All of the above. Except the part about jamming *I never said that as jam would indicate stuck to me*
I warned against the desire to compare 190 grain bullets and assuming they were all created equal.
*is this opinion incorrect?*

Then related my findings using a COAL gauge.

My findings were 2.145 @ lands OAL
1.753 BTO on lands.

By all means my COAL gauge may not of been strong enough to push through and into the lands.
* bore riding wasn't accounted for I'd guess.

I did measure the bullet and you were damn close...
overall length varied from 1.310 to 1.365
0.63-5" down from nose until 0.3075 bore diameter. Right above that pressure groove
Diameter 3/16-1/4 below nose varied from 0.299 to 0.304
*Measurements pulled from a sample of 50 bullets* - Micrometer on diameters and calipers used on length.

Maybe I measured a fat bullet when doing my COAL test?

What I thought at the time was that loading 2.25 caused my excessive ES issue. Coincidentally it did but maybe wasn't for the exact reason I believed. . .

So instead of helping I confused the OP. /cheers?
@rebel - reading through Makers forum today while I work.
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by BOB567 »

Wow. This all makes my head hurt. Someone was correct in that there is no published data by Maker on these bullets. I did find where someone called Hornady and received data from them on their 190 gr. Load. And there is a YouTube video of reloading the Maker 190. I did lots of cross referencing with various sources of info and started from there. Hodgson does list a 180 grain bullet (not Makers) in their online data. Couple all that with a go - logo gauge is where I came up with the length. Upon loading the chamber from the mag, the bolt closed clean. After firing the first couple rounds, prime and casting appeared normal. I'll try some testing with the bullet pushed deeper and see what happens.
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by BOB567 »

Now if I could just get auto correct from changing what I type, life would be good.
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Re: Makers 190 and CFE BLK subsonic

Post by SIMJOSH1 »

BOB567 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:10 am Now if I could just get auto correct from changing what I type, life would be good.
If you find a trick to get auto correct to function correctly let me know!

Regardless - I love this bullet.. Cheaper than the 200gn.

I've had great success with accuracy without any tumbling or stabilization issues. Only issues I've had - 8" barrel's extreme spread... 16" barrel was a breeze to get loaded up but this shorter barrel plagued me with inconsistent velocities.. at least for a while.

Last thing I might mention - Measuring with a hornady ogive comparator. Once I found a "pet" loading...
I run all the bullets through ten thousandths long then go back and adjust in groups as I normally get varying results when measured off a Hornady comparator...

Good luck Bob -My goal was to share knowledge I'd learned to help along your process - Didn't mean to add any misinformation or confusion into the mix!
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