Powder Shootout. CFE Black vs A1680

[wildfowler]

Please accept my apologies for not reading your entire post.I’m just some nobody online so don’t get bothered by me.

The rest of my reply stands. If you wish to find one powder that will function an AR15 regardless of bullet weight 1680 is it.

[alamo5000]

Please accept my apologies for not reading your entire post.I’m just some nobody online so don’t get bothered by me.

The rest of my reply stands. If you wish to find one powder that will function an AR15 regardless of bullet weight 1680 is it.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Water under the bridge.

As for powders it doesn't have to be a one size fits all. Not at all. In other calibers maybe a one stop shop is ok, but for 300 BLK the diversity of options is far greater than all those others.

Examples would be 99% of the centerfire rifles out there. Just choose a bullet based on needs and go from there with powders based on harmonics and accuracy nodes of your gun. With a .223/5.56 it's also more a decision of bullet design and weight for a specific need. Suppressors on those other rifle calibers just knock the noise back quite a bit but if you are going to shoot ear pro is still on the agenda.

300 BLK though, you have cast, coated, plated, and jacketed options, as well as light, mid, and heavy supers and all of those have unique bullet designs for different needs. Then you have subs which also has a bunch of bullet choices, but also 300 BLK can be toned back noise wise to very tolerable noise levels.

Basically as a whole 300 BLK is definitely on the deep end of the reloading scale if you want it to be.

In the end I do want to try some of those staple powders (IE 1680) but in this caliber specifically if you really want to get into it a one stop shop for a single powder might not be the best option, especially for 300 BLK.

I don't mind having 3 or 4 powders at all. What those are though, I have no clue. I have a strong suspicion that before it's all said and done I might be buying 16 pounds if this, 4 pounds of that, and 2 pounds of the other based on my shooting needs.

[dellet]

Alamo,

I have started and trashed a half dozen responses to this question. Each time I find it gets to long. You touched the actual answer or maybe better put the answer.

I have ended up with way too many rifles, barrels, and uppers working with this cartridge over the years. What I have learned is if I treat them as completely different cartridges in each rifle, I do a whole lot better.

A 7” AR with a 1/5 twist being different than a 24” bolt action with a 1/10 is easy to understand. A 12” bolt and a 10” AR maybe not so much. A 10” carbine gas and a 9” pistol gas could be confusing. Then add in cast vs jacketed and each one is a new rifle again, shooting a completely different cartridge. This is why it’s held my attention for so long.

Best example I can give is supers in the 150-155 weight range.

Speer 150 gold dot is 1.050” long
23.5 grains of Shooters World Blackout in a 24” barrel
19 grains 296 in a 8” barrel
The Shooters World is basically 1680. Using that in the 8” I would lose about 150 fps. because of to slow of burn and lower pressure. Using 296 in the long barrel, I get pressure signs long before reaching the velocity of the Shooters World.

Both loads are good for dimes at 100 yards. The bullet is very jump tolerant. One load was .010” off the lands the other was closer to .200”

G9 154 grain is 1.435” long.
To load that bullet to magazine length and shoot it in an AR case capacity is at a premium. Again 296 gets the call. Unless you are shooting single shot or an AI mag in a bolt action, you can’t get enough 1680 in the case. In my bolt action I load that bullet to 2.410” and use 1680/Shooter World.

For subs I look for good case fill. I use a lot of N120. Burns cleaner and quieter than 1680. Has a better volume for weight (more), and takes about 5% more powder to get the same velocity. You have better load density for easier to tune a lower ES and it has an anti copper fouling additive.

To go quieter yet, fast pistol powders get the nod. So powders like N105 or AA#9. They work very well on lower density while still giving tight spreads. That’s the big problem with H110/296. It seems to throw high spreads until you get to 95% plus. That’s impossible to get with a 10 grain load.

Add in cast bullets to the mix and you have to start looking at peak pressure matching bullet hardness. No amount of coating will keep 55,000 psi from cutting a soft bullet. So a cast bullet and a fast pistol powder like N105 might produce groups at fifty yards measured in feet.

So in your case with 165 and 180 bullets, they can be shot as both sub and super. At some point you might want a hunting or target bullet for sub and super. Then you take up cast and can have another sub and super combo.

You talk of enjoying 1/4 MOA groups, don’t discount this cartridge within 300 yards. 1/2 MOA with all those combos is possible. But my guess is 5 powders won’t be enough to get them all shooting that way.

Sorry to not be much specific help, but if you come up with a couple bullets you really want to use, suggesting a couple powders would be easier.

For what it’s worth I burn up more 296 and Shooters World/1680 than anything else, but I shoot lots of supers.

Subs it’s N105 for pistol length gas and N120 for carbine.

#9 for some subs and light supers, under 100 grains.

Subs from 85-265 grains in a hand fed. Supers from 85-178.

In an AR subs from 110-265 grains and the same supers.
Anything under 150 grains as a sub in an AR is a parlor trick just to prove it can be done. There is so much unburned powder left behind due to low pressure reliability after a few rounds is questionable.

This was still too damn long, I won’t bother to proofread it.

[alamo5000]

I actually drove to the city (Houston) this weekend and I picked up some powder. No where did they have any VV powder and I wasn't going to drive around anymore than I already did. I was going to Houston anyway but it's a big city with lots of traffic.

Fortunately I also ran across a guy that casts his own bullets and is familiar with casting/coating/reloading etc for such. It was definitely a good discussion.

The powders I got were all in #1lb increments. Not in any order they are:

1. Accurate 1680
2. CFE Black
3. IMR 4227
4. Shooter's World Blackout (a new powder I never heard of)
5. Accurate #9
6. IMR 4895 (left over from a long time ago that was already on my shelf)
7. H110 which I already bought before yesterday

I probably could have done without the CFE Black but it was right there in front of me so I will eventually use it up.

On a side note before yesterday's shopping spree I did try a load that I found for the IMR 4895 that I found here on a previous thread from a long time ago.

My test bullets are 217 grain cast bullets which with 13 grains of 4895 it was a compressed load. The load I saw called for 14.1 grains but I have no idea how they got that much powder into the case. I couldn't even seat the bullet so I reduced the charge and it was still compressed.

On a good note it did cycle the action. My velocities were in the mid 900's or thereabouts. I am thinking this powder with a jacketed 180 grain to 190 grain bullet would have potential. Out of a longer barrel I am sure the velocity would be much better but out of a 9" barrel with a pistol gas it did work. I might even be able to tinker with the charge a little bit.

The 4895 load was definitely loud though. It was subsonic but up there with Remington 220 grain ammo sound wise. In other words, it was louder than I would like. The function was different for sure, I guess because of the slower powder but with a quick tune of the gas block it would work just fine.

Just on a rough guess 180 to 190 grains with a bump in powder charge would give 1050 fps and reliable function without changing any of my gas settings.

Anyway I have my work cut out for me. I would still like to get some of the VV powder but I should be busy for a while now.

I am still going to be asking some questions about the specific powders that I have now.

[alamo5000]

The Shooters World is basically 1680.
---
I use a lot of N120. Burns cleaner and quieter than 1680. Has a better volume for weight (more), and takes about 5% more powder to get the same velocity. You have better load density for easier to tune a lower ES and it has an anti copper fouling additive.
---
To go quieter yet, fast pistol powders get the nod. So powders like N105 or AA#9. They work very well on lower density while still giving tight spreads.
---
Add in cast bullets to the mix and you have to start looking at peak pressure matching bullet hardness. No amount of coating will keep 55,000 psi from cutting a soft bullet. So a cast bullet and a fast pistol powder like N105 might produce groups at fifty yards measured in feet.
---
You talk of enjoying 1/4 MOA groups, don’t discount this cartridge within 300 yards. 1/2 MOA with all those combos is possible. But my guess is 5 powders won’t be enough to get them all shooting that way.
---
#9 for some subs and light supers, under 100 grains.
---
This was still too damn long, I won’t bother to proofread it.

I am the king of long posts so don't worry! LOL!

I had never heard of shooter's world. I bought a pound of it to see. The guy at one of the stores said it was GTG.

I still want to get some VV powders but so far not luck getting any yet. Next time I put in a order for primers or whatever I will throw a few choices in the box.

As far as the accurate #9 I am interested in learning more. The other powders seem pretty straight forward but this one intrigues me. I am curious as to some of your load info. The store I went into had a reloading manual in there and they actually had published data for it but I didn't think to snap a picture of the page. I am specifically interested in a good starting point for subsonic loads out of my 9" gun.

As far as super accurate loads, I am certain it's good for it. I have zero doubt. That said I am running all my loads out of a 9" SBR with a 1x red dot. I am using this gun so far as a run and gun CQB sort of setup. 1 to 2 inches is 'good enough' for my use.

Eventually I might add in some NV so I can shoot in the dark and not wake the dead with all my noise LOL!

[alamo5000]

Just to add more interesting stuff to the mix...I ordered a little bottle of Puff-Lon to see what I can do.

Eventually after I get functioning loads going I will see if I can make really quiet functioning loads

It might work and it might not, but the inner nerd in me is dying to find out. LOL!

[41Bear]

alamo5000 I won't go into powers or practices as other, better men than I have already spoken however if you, or anyone here for that matter, need to order on line might I suggest Graf & Sons. At this time their shipping/HAZMAT charge is $7.95/$10.00 a price I haven't been able to beat or even come close to elsewhere on line.

[ThreeHundredBlackout]

Just to add more interesting stuff to the mix...I ordered a little bottle of Puff-Lon to see what I can do.

Eventually after I get functioning loads going I will see if I can make really quiet functioning loads

It might work and it might not, but the inner nerd in me is dying to find out. LOL!

Id like to hear how the puff-lon goes, been researching that after talking to a fella that used it for a diff caliber.

[alamo5000]

Just to add more interesting stuff to the mix...I ordered a little bottle of Puff-Lon to see what I can do.

Eventually after I get functioning loads going I will see if I can make really quiet functioning loads

It might work and it might not, but the inner nerd in me is dying to find out. LOL!

Id like to hear how the puff-lon goes, been researching that after talking to a fella that used it for a diff caliber.

I have known about that product for ages on end. I am also familiar with people using all sorts of stuff that acts as a 'filler'. I've never had the need for it before but now considering this is the first real caliber that I have been trying to make reduced loads and/or run across case capacity issues I decided to give it a try.

I will definitely be reporting back.

With 300 BLK I bit off quite a lot considering I've never loaded cast bullets before (until now). I also have some 190 grain Noslers that I suspect will also have the powder shift issue as well (if I shoot them at subsonic speeds). I am keeping my fingers crossed that puff-lon works as advertised.

I've had people tell me to try different things but I figured puff-lon would hopefully give me better and more consistent results.

[alamo5000]

alamo5000 I won't go into powers or practices as other, better men than I have already spoken however if you, or anyone here for that matter, need to order on line might I suggest Graf & Sons. At this time their shipping/HAZMAT charge is $7.95/$10.00 a price I haven't been able to beat or even come close to elsewhere on line.

I will give them a look. The last time I checked the price of their powder(s) per pound was higher than Powder Valley by a few bucks per pound but I will have to compare again and see. I guess it just depends on your order.

Their prices compared to what I paid retail in a somewhat local shop to me, plus sales tax, is a whole lot more. I probably could have saved a bundle or at least came out ahead if I had shopped around some more.

I will definitely keep them in mind for future purchases though.