New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

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dellet
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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by dellet » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:21 pm

Klem wrote:
bearcatrp wrote:Have any other sub rounds you can try to see if they are doing the same thing? the hornady 190 subs are out now so should be easy to get some. I know your hand loading these but a commercial round could help figure this out if your barrel is bad.
As I said earlier in the thread, my usual sub load is the 220SMK and this was shooting fine on the day. I have been shooting Blackout since 2011 and trialled a number of heavy bullets for subsonic (220SMK, 240SMK, 220Sierra RN, 220Hornady RN, 210Berger, 220Outlaw State SN, 220 Blackout Bullets HP, the 200Lapua and a few light bullets with Trail Boss for non-cycling super-quiet). This is the first time I have seen any go unstable.

Nosler replied again saying they have seen this instability on two occasions;

1. When a muzzle device interferes with the gasses surrounding the bullet on exiting.
2. When slow powder does the same.

I have been using H4198 but will try a faster powder.
A slower powder will have more muzzle pressure, so that's a possibility. I would bet it's on the other end. Not enough pressure to expand the bullet and seal the bore, gas cutting the base.

If they are having enough problems to flag "muzzle devices", I think that bullet is barely stable unless there have been a lot of people with threads not concentric with the bore.

Interested to hear what happens.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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Klem
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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by Klem » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:54 pm

OK, ongoing testing results with the new Nosler 220 Ballistic Tip...

I tried a faster powder H4227 and as suspected it does not cycle the action. Even if it solved the group sizes I can't use a gun that does not cycle. It did reduce group sizes but produced groups bigger than the 220Sierra Match King control load. So, out on both counts.

Back to the original H4198 which does cycle the action. Fitted a suppressor this time in the hope it would tame and contain the exiting gasses around the bullet. The suppressor reduced the yawing and group sizes but still three times bigger than the control load, the 220SMK. If you look closely you can see that some Nosler bullets enter the target on a slight angle. Not as severe as my earlier efforts with no suppressor but its enough to blow out the group size. This suggests it might be exiting gas related.

Here are the results;
Image
Image

Out of my gun this bullet is unstable.

Great idea but I can't use it.
Last edited by Klem on Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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dellet
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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by dellet » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:21 pm

Klem, whats your barrel length and gas system?

I’m surprised 4227 would not work, what other powders do you have available?
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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by Klem » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:38 am

dellet wrote:Klem, whats your barrel length and gas system?

I’m surprised 4227 would not work, what other powders do you have available?
12.5" pistol length gas 1:7 twist Rainier Ultra Match.

It's not the powder, it will be something like twist rate or exhaust gas on a bullet that is close to unstable to start with. I've run out of bullets so that my tilt at this thing. If anyone else has any experience with the Nosler 220BT please share

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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by dellet » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:57 am

Klem wrote:
dellet wrote:Klem, whats your barrel length and gas system?

I’m surprised 4227 would not work, what other powders do you have available?
12.5" pistol length gas 1:7 twist Rainier Ultra Match.

It's not the powder, it will be something like twist rate or exhaust gas on a bullet that is close to unstable to start with. I've run out of bullets so that my tilt at this thing. If anyone else has any experience with the Nosler 220BT please share
You should not have had a cycling problem with a 220 grain bullet and 4227 with pistol gas.
Have you tried the Match Kings with it?
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by Klem » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:10 pm

dellet wrote:
Klem wrote:
dellet wrote:Klem, whats your barrel length and gas system?

I’m surprised 4227 would not work, what other powders do you have available?
12.5" pistol length gas 1:7 twist Rainier Ultra Match.

It's not the powder, it will be something like twist rate or exhaust gas on a bullet that is close to unstable to start with. I've run out of bullets so that my tilt at this thing. If anyone else has any experience with the Nosler 220BT please share
You should not have had a cycling problem with a 220 grain bullet and 4227 with pistol gas.
Have you tried the Match Kings with it?
I don't know how to respond to that other than to repeat myself.

Let's stick to the 220NoslerBT please. If anyone else has had any experience of this bullet your feedback is appreciated.

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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by Naporter » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:37 pm

Pistol gas is quite forgiving. I’ve liked 4227 with my 10.5” rifle. Always had smooth cycling even without the suppressor attached. Seems like maybe there’s some quirk to this particular bullet causing the issue.

I never had any cycling issues until I tried loading for my X95. Switching powders solved the issue. I’m using Shooters World Blackout in it now for the 200gr Maker bullet. This powder is a repackaged Lovex powder. Probably would be horribly over gassed in a pistol length, but maybe not with this bullet.

And if you’re at your wits end, CFE BLK is always an option. It’s dirty and wildly inconsistent with subs though (at least what I’ve seen of it) but practically guaranteed to cycle (it will cycle my X95 even when the regulator is set for supersonic loads).

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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by Klem » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:13 am

Ok let's sort out this powder issue so we can concentrate on the Nosler220 BT.

I have been using the USA designation for Australian powders so you guys know what I am talking about, however it seems there is some confusion as to 4227.As I understand it H4227 was discontinued a few years ago when Hodgdens acquired IMR. IMR4227 was outselling H4227 so they stopped making H4227. H4227 is similar but not the same as IMR4227. I am talking about AR2205 which is known in your country as H4227. AR2205/H4227 does not cycle the action reliably with this bullet. This does not surprise me because I tried this years ago with other heavy bullets.

For the avoidance of doubt, I live in the southern hemisphere and used AR2207 for the initial testing which is my go-to powder for BLK subsonics. I then used AR2205 which is my go-to powder for BLK supersonics. Then back to AR2207 for the final test. I managed to cure the worst of the bullet going through the target sideways but at the end of two powders, 150 bullet and three trips to the range the bullet was still unstable to the point of groups being three times bigger than the Sierra Match King.

I used 2205 on the advice of the Nosler rep who advocated for a faster powder thinking it was unspent powder billowing around the bullet as it exited the barrel. I believe him, however I can't use faster powders and still expect the action to cycle reliably. Using 2205 sometimes the action cycled properly and sometimes it didn't so that means I can't use it. My theory after all this is that the 220Nosler is not as forgiving as other bullets for subsonic. It is prone to instability.

Now, as I understand it AR2207 is H4198 and AR2205 is H4227 (not IMR4227). IMR powder is now owned by Hodgdens but is not their range of 'H' powders. I believe IMR is general Dynamics in Canada and they make a lot of double-based powders.

Here is the ADI/AM powder equivalent chart
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... alents.asp

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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by dellet » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:48 am

Klem wrote:
dellet wrote:
Klem wrote:
12.5" pistol length gas 1:7 twist Rainier Ultra Match.

It's not the powder, it will be something like twist rate or exhaust gas on a bullet that is close to unstable to start with. I've run out of bullets so that my tilt at this thing. If anyone else has any experience with the Nosler 220BT please share
You should not have had a cycling problem with a 220 grain bullet and 4227 with pistol gas.
Have you tried the Match Kings with it?
I don't know how to respond to that other than to repeat myself.

Let's stick to the 220NoslerBT please. If anyone else has had any experience of this bullet your feedback is appreciated.
Best response would either be to tell me you don’t want help, or simply answer the questions. Based on some of the info you have provided, it’s quite possible you have more than a bullet problem.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.

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Re: New 220 Nosler BT' Range Report... Problems.

Post by Naporter » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:58 am

I mentioned the REX bullet because it has a similar length (off by 0.01” according to respective manufacturers’ specs) and I’m seating them at roughly the same COL (2.1 in my case). So, big bullet set deeper than your control SMK’s. Now, when i was first having trouble with my x95 dellet suggesting increasing COL to get better chances of cycling. Not an option for you of course. It didn’t work for me and I ended up trying a bunch of different powders I had on hand. H4227, H4198, IMR4198, and CFE BLK were all either unable to cycle or had horribly bad accuracy.

I found the SW Blackout powder to do the trick for the Maker bullet. It’s horribly overgassed with Lapua Scenar L though in my rifle. The Maker won’t lock back the bolt but will cycle reliably. Since the SW powder doesn’t seem to be on your list, I don’t know what to recommend. If you can get Lovex powder down there its D063-02. Not sure of any equivalents.

And it’s also worth pointing out that burn profiles can be odd at subsonic velocities and with so little case space. QuickLoad seems to have trouble with them too (or maybe it’s just me, but they’re always several hundred FPS off), if you’re using it.

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