300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

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Dr.Phil
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by Dr.Phil »

Well, it didn't take long for this to happen:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017 ... -hold-sec/
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/10/26/tr ... ive-range/

900 Meter 300 Blackout Round? Hold On a Sec

Image

Idaho company Trom Technologies (formerly PNW Arms) is advertising a new 300 Blackout round that it claims extends that cartridge’s effective range to 900 meters, more than twice the generally accepted 400 meter value for that round. They claim the new round maintains a 100% chance of hitting an IDPA silhouette at that distance, and that it retains over 400 Joules of energy making it, they say, “effective on biological organisms of all kinds”. The company released a somewhat esoteric PDF that not only extolled the virtues of their new ammunition (which also comes in subsonic and .308 Winchester flavors), but details their corporate strategy of selling consumers “the subscription experience”. What this has to do with ammunition is not made clear in the file.
Down to brass tacks now: What Trom is advertising does not seem highly probable to me. Their round does seem to sport a streamlined turned copper alloy bullet, and projectiles of this type do tend to have very high BCs for their weight. However, a little extra digging begins to draw considerable doubt in my mind. Nowhere in the entire document are values for ballistic coefficient or even projectile weight given – yet we can determine both by the data presented therein. We calculate that a projectile possessing a muzzle velocity of 2,190 ft/s and a muzzle energy of 1,935 Joules must have a weight of 134 grains. We also know that in order to retain the claimed 393 Joules at 1,000 meters, that projectile must have a G7 BC of at least 0.27. This means that the projectile’s effective claimed i7 Form Factor has to be less than 0.75 (0.747, to be exact), which is beyond exceptional. An example of an exceptional brass turned bullet is the Warner Tool Company 155gr Palma Flatline, which itself has a G7 BC of 0.270, despite being 21 grains heavier. This projectile has an i7 Form Factor of 0.865, which means if the Trom values are correct, it is a 16% less efficient aerodynamic shape than the 134gr Trom. Yet, the WTC 155gr Palma Flatline is a much longer, better streamlined bullet which has an ogive 0.064″ too long to even fit within the 300 Blackout’s overall length.

These facts lead me to believe that the velocity and energy figures presented in the chart by Trom are unrealistic. This does not necessarily mean they were intending to be deceptive; it is relatively easy to accidentally produce inaccurate data which may seem to indicate that a projectile design performs much better than it actually does. It’s likely that they did experience a “100%” hit probability on an IDPA silhouette at 900 meters, although this is not so astounding an achievement as it sounds. Many, many bullets are capable of retaining their precision through the transition from the supersonic to transonic and then subsonic flight regimes. This was a key element to “heavy ball” machine gun projectiles like .30 M1 Ball and .303 Mk. VIII of nearly a 100 years ago, for example. So it is entirely possible that the Trom projectile produces a dispersion at 900 meters (which is beyond its supersonic range) that makes a hit on an IDPA silhouette highly likely, but this capability is by no means unique to that bullet, nor even particularly special or noteworthy.
I think until Trom submits their round to a third party for Doppler radar readings, I will remain skeptical of their claims.
 
H/T Soldier Systems Daily.
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dellet
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by dellet »

Dr.Phil wrote:Well, it didn't take long for this to happen:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017 ... -hold-sec/
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/10/26/tr ... ive-range/

900 Meter 300 Blackout Round? Hold On a Sec

Image

Idaho company Trom Technologies (formerly PNW Arms) is advertising a new 300 Blackout round that it claims extends that cartridge’s effective range to 900 meters, more than twice the generally accepted 400 meter value for that round. They claim the new round maintains a 100% chance of hitting an IDPA silhouette at that distance, and that it retains over 400 Joules of energy making it, they say, “effective on biological organisms of all kinds”. The company released a somewhat esoteric PDF that not only extolled the virtues of their new ammunition (which also comes in subsonic and .308 Winchester flavors), but details their corporate strategy of selling consumers “the subscription experience”. What this has to do with ammunition is not made clear in the file.
Down to brass tacks now: What Trom is advertising does not seem highly probable to me. Their round does seem to sport a streamlined turned copper alloy bullet, and projectiles of this type do tend to have very high BCs for their weight. However, a little extra digging begins to draw considerable doubt in my mind. Nowhere in the entire document are values for ballistic coefficient or even projectile weight given – yet we can determine both by the data presented therein. We calculate that a projectile possessing a muzzle velocity of 2,190 ft/s and a muzzle energy of 1,935 Joules must have a weight of 134 grains. We also know that in order to retain the claimed 393 Joules at 1,000 meters, that projectile must have a G7 BC of at least 0.27. This means that the projectile’s effective claimed i7 Form Factor has to be less than 0.75 (0.747, to be exact), which is beyond exceptional. An example of an exceptional brass turned bullet is the Warner Tool Company 155gr Palma Flatline, which itself has a G7 BC of 0.270, despite being 21 grains heavier. This projectile has an i7 Form Factor of 0.865, which means if the Trom values are correct, it is a 16% less efficient aerodynamic shape than the 134gr Trom. Yet, the WTC 155gr Palma Flatline is a much longer, better streamlined bullet which has an ogive 0.064″ too long to even fit within the 300 Blackout’s overall length.

These facts lead me to believe that the velocity and energy figures presented in the chart by Trom are unrealistic. This does not necessarily mean they were intending to be deceptive; it is relatively easy to accidentally produce inaccurate data which may seem to indicate that a projectile design performs much better than it actually does. It’s likely that they did experience a “100%” hit probability on an IDPA silhouette at 900 meters, although this is not so astounding an achievement as it sounds. Many, many bullets are capable of retaining their precision through the transition from the supersonic to transonic and then subsonic flight regimes. This was a key element to “heavy ball” machine gun projectiles like .30 M1 Ball and .303 Mk. VIII of nearly a 100 years ago, for example. So it is entirely possible that the Trom projectile produces a dispersion at 900 meters (which is beyond its supersonic range) that makes a hit on an IDPA silhouette highly likely, but this capability is by no means unique to that bullet, nor even particularly special or noteworthy.
I think until Trom submits their round to a third party for Doppler radar readings, I will remain skeptical of their claims.
 
H/T Soldier Systems Daily.
I had originally questioned the above comparison, the manufacturer does have PDF presentation making the 1000 meter claims. After taking a close look at the drop table included, the numbers are very believable based on my experience and Dr. Phil's shooting.

Here is the PDF file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7pbyx ... haV3M/view


The question that has needed to be answered was accuracy and stability through the transonic range, and Dr. Phil pretty well put that to rest a couple weeks ago. A bullet designed for 300 Blackout would achieve the numbers posted easily. The real problem is drop and 20 MIL/70 MOA compensation needed with a 200 yard zero.

The trick here, if there is one, is using Joules for energy instead of pounds.

A Berger 135 Flatbase
2200 FPS MV
1972 J ME
346 J at 1000 meters, 380 J at 900. 400 J at 850

Barnes 130 XLC
2200 fps MV
1899 J ME
333 J at 1000 meters, 366 At 900, 400 J at 820

Sierra 135 SMK
2200 FPS
1972 J ME
299 J at 1000, 330 J at 900, 400 J at 740.

To design a real Match quality copper bullet in that weight class should have no real problem making 400 Joules happen at 900.

Dr. Phil's load at 1900 fps should have more than 400 Joules at 1000 meters/1200 yards. That round in a 16" barrel would have 400 J out to 1250 meters/1350 yards. So I know for a fact it can be done, and he did on a target half the size..

This is why I have tried to promote bullets for the Blackout in the 140-150 weight range.

Edit for correction and add link to manufacturers presentation file.
Last edited by dellet on Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
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rebel
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by rebel »

Truth in advertising in the gun/ammo/accessories market tends to be blurry. 8)
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ozleux
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by ozleux »

For anyone interested, Mile High Shooting has the G9 bullets on sale. Buy two boxes of the same caliber, and get a free box of the same caliber.
And of course I bought some :mrgreen: ,It brings the price down to about .53 ea. before shipping.
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leam
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by leam »

Okay, I'm starting to dream about this. It'd probably take my allowance for the next year or two, and a tax refund, and my birthday money. Might start playing scratch off too...

I don't know enough about my 300 BLK yet to know what I don't know. Should be fun learning and the local high power matches go to 600 yards. Would like to show up and at least hit the paper.

Also, ozleux, my dad lived in Bassett until he passed away a few years ago. So, at least one other person here knows where it is. :)
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by ozleux »

I'm past the dreaming part. I went with a 18" barrel with carbine gas from McGowen. Now I'm trying to find the LMT bcg. Bullets will be here in a week, so at least I can get started in the 700. This is going to be too much fun to pass on.
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Boulderdash
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by Boulderdash »

I bought four boxes of the bullets.
I haven't done anything with them yet.
I am stuck in a debate with myself about what brass to use.
leam
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by leam »

Boulderdash wrote:I bought four boxes of the bullets.
I haven't done anything with them yet.
I am stuck in a debate with myself about what brass to use.
I read the thread and was impressed with the level of detail needed to achieve the target. In this case I'd say "buy once, cry once". My go-to would be Starline but really, others probably know more. Get the best components you can afford.
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by Boulderdash »

Well, my issue is this:
I think these loads might be hard on brass. They are going to be very hot.
It has been my experience that in 300 BO, I notice a significant difference in accuracy and standard of deviation when I started using good brass.
Since this is a long range load and accuracy is the goal, I want to use good brass.
I have 200 brand new, unopened Lapua brass sitting here but I don't know if I want to use them for this project. On the other hand, I don't see any point in shooting these expensive bullets for long range accuracy with questionable quality brass.

So, in the end, I will load these in Lapua brass, but I am just getting used to the idea.
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Dr.Phil
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Re: 300 BLK MATCH Ammo that is good out to 800 Yards...

Post by Dr.Phil »

Yes, brass choice is important for many reasons.
It has to be able to handle the pressure without blowing primers.
It needs to have good capacity.
Then there is the point that you are spending considerable time and money, so why screw things up with junk brass.

Norma or Lapua brass is ideal, but with a load like this, they will not last very long.
If you want to go with less expensive brass, Hornady will work just fine.
The most critical brass prep step in 300 BLK is flash hole uniforming.
Here is an inexpensive tool that gets the job done.
Image
The Norma and Lapua brass don't need it though.

Best of luck!
Stay safe and be sure to do proper load development for your rifle.
The money you save jumping ahead in loads is not anywhere near the cost of an upper.
"Don't tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly,
don't tell them where they know the fish."
--Mark Twain
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