Someone just mentioned that Redding was coming out with one for the .458 socom, and of course that brought up that Hornady already has one that'll work on it. Since .458 socom is hardly a tack driver round anyway, I fail to see the point but I suppose people want them and that's reason enough to sell them. Which brings me to this post. Why?
Not just why for .458 socom, but why period? There's so many variables in seating depth that I fail to see how having a vernier scale on the screw is of any benefit unless you really are that inept as to not know how much to turn without a line to go to. Think of kindergarten gym class "everyone step one tile forward" because none of the kids would move the same distance if you said "one step" or "one foot" or any other command - the tile is the scale and that's what they understand and can repeat.
But those kids aren't equipped with a caliper, and they aren't going to use the caliper to verify what distance that gradation movement resulted in. So it actually makes far more logical sense to have a graduated floor in a elementary school gym than it does to have lines on the barrel of your seating die. The floor also isn't providing different resistance based on how much movement is occurring - brass does.
So help me out here. What does having that extra $25 (or whatever it cost) do for you that you aren't already achieving in the very next step after removing the cartridge from the press when measuring it? Inquiring minds want to know!
Micrometer seating dies - why?
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- Jim Timber
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Micrometer seating dies - why?
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Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
Well, Jim first off I don't have one for everything. I don't have one right now for 300 Blackout - but intend to purchase one.
It gives a repeatable mark to seat a given bullet without having dummy cartridges. I can change projectiles and tweak the depth and return to zero. I can do all that with a regular die but I'm guessing at depth until it's right.
I use a lot of VLD bullets with other cartridges and regular seaters tend to push on the meplat of those and give inconsistencies.
I don't have a micrometer seater for 45/70 or 444 Marlin but I like them for certain applications. I didn't have one for the 260 AI so I slightly modified the seater for VLDs to get me going.
I like them for certain things.
It gives a repeatable mark to seat a given bullet without having dummy cartridges. I can change projectiles and tweak the depth and return to zero. I can do all that with a regular die but I'm guessing at depth until it's right.
I use a lot of VLD bullets with other cartridges and regular seaters tend to push on the meplat of those and give inconsistencies.
I don't have a micrometer seater for 45/70 or 444 Marlin but I like them for certain applications. I didn't have one for the 260 AI so I slightly modified the seater for VLDs to get me going.
I like them for certain things.
You can't beat the mountain, pilgrim. Mountains got its own way.
Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
Amen, Jim. I completely agree.
Nobody wants to measure anything. The same principal you mention with the micrometer dies holds for the popularity of case gauges. Instead of using calipers or a mic to see what you are doing, you only need to drop $70 on a little machined SS tube for every caliber you load..... Problem solved.
I also think they sell more of those marked up seater dies because they are always labeled "Pro" or "competition". Anything labeled that has got to be better, right? Then take your $150 micrometer seatig die and screw in into your $79 super flexible Lee loader.....
Nobody wants to measure anything. The same principal you mention with the micrometer dies holds for the popularity of case gauges. Instead of using calipers or a mic to see what you are doing, you only need to drop $70 on a little machined SS tube for every caliber you load..... Problem solved.
I also think they sell more of those marked up seater dies because they are always labeled "Pro" or "competition". Anything labeled that has got to be better, right? Then take your $150 micrometer seatig die and screw in into your $79 super flexible Lee loader.....
Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
Micrometer stems
Repeatable settings when using multiple bullet profiles in the same die.
Easier to adjust, you don't have to unlock/lock the stem down. (yes, I realize you don't have to lock it down until you find your setting, but it won't be as precise unless you do)
If I want to move the bullet .023", 98% of the time I only make the adjustment once. This is probably the biggest advantage.
Competition seating dies
The spring loaded competition dies, with float in the seating stem seem to seat flatbase bullets easier and straight without hassle.
With a highly compressed load they suck at repeatability, unless you sort your bullets base to ogive. The bullet stops when spring pressure is overcome, same distance from top of powder to ogive instead of cartridge base to ogive.
The two things in my loading bench that have made the biggest difference in convenient, repeatable, and precise adjustments are a comparator, and a micrometer stem. In that order.
Repeatable settings when using multiple bullet profiles in the same die.
Easier to adjust, you don't have to unlock/lock the stem down. (yes, I realize you don't have to lock it down until you find your setting, but it won't be as precise unless you do)
If I want to move the bullet .023", 98% of the time I only make the adjustment once. This is probably the biggest advantage.
Competition seating dies
The spring loaded competition dies, with float in the seating stem seem to seat flatbase bullets easier and straight without hassle.
With a highly compressed load they suck at repeatability, unless you sort your bullets base to ogive. The bullet stops when spring pressure is overcome, same distance from top of powder to ogive instead of cartridge base to ogive.
The two things in my loading bench that have made the biggest difference in convenient, repeatable, and precise adjustments are a comparator, and a micrometer stem. In that order.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
This is the type of discussion gun guys should be having Next we'll cover cup and core vs. bonded bullets on meat!
One other thing about "competition" seaters -they are spring loaded. You get a really good feel in seating the bullet if you have a light touch.
I am around guys that have held world records, that make incredible scores in competition and reload their own ammo. I don't think any one of them can say they use a regular set of dies. I don't shoot like they do but I like making the best ammo I can. If you aren't terribly concerned with runout, by all means the cheaper stuff will serve you well. I'll guarantee a Redding Competition seater or a custom die from Whidden will seat your bullet straighter than a regular die.
They make both sets for a reason, some need it and some don't.
One other thing about "competition" seaters -they are spring loaded. You get a really good feel in seating the bullet if you have a light touch.
I am around guys that have held world records, that make incredible scores in competition and reload their own ammo. I don't think any one of them can say they use a regular set of dies. I don't shoot like they do but I like making the best ammo I can. If you aren't terribly concerned with runout, by all means the cheaper stuff will serve you well. I'll guarantee a Redding Competition seater or a custom die from Whidden will seat your bullet straighter than a regular die.
They make both sets for a reason, some need it and some don't.
You can't beat the mountain, pilgrim. Mountains got its own way.
Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
For the 300BO AR I don't see the point of using one as my cheap RCBS does just fine and I get decent groups at 50yds. For my 7mm RemMag I use a Forster Micrometer die and it was worth every penny as I can fine tune for long range loads with a variety of bullets without wasting any time. I use a comparator set also and measure everything off the ogive and can get my exact measurements to the lands for a wide variety of bullets without making dummy rounds. Once I get my targeted COL for each bullet I just make note of the location on the die and log it for future use, then it's just screw in the die and set the measurement.
- Jim Timber
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Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
My brain wouldn't shut off last night after posting this, and I came to the same conclusion you've provided with the ability to make a note on the load build sheet to get you close when changing bullets. I can appreciate that as saving time. How much time? Well, I don't know there.
I have a bigger bitch with Hornady for not making the ram length datums the same across their LnL line, because I have these really fancy adapters for all my dies and I can't swap them from my progressive to single stage and produce the same result - completely defeating the whole point of the damn system for me.
Case gages are where I'm going to argue here. The datum diameter for different shoulders is different across the spectrum of ammunition, and the Sheridan style gage (made off a chambered section of barrel blank) has changed my life to where I'd like to get one for .223 and .308. Not because it tells me about my brass (what the traditional Wilson gages are good for), but because I can SEE where my bullet is relative to the throat. Being able to load to a max length for a SAAMI spec chamber would be a big improvement over trying to remember which of my rifles has the tightest throat and loading to it (they tend to rotate into other people's collections, so that barrel is a moving target).
Granted, this only works on a chamber that's the same or tighter than your rifles, but it's a big help when dealing with semi-wildcat's since there's about 8 bullets listed for the .458S in published data, and I'm not using any of them besides the ballistic tip.
I have a bigger bitch with Hornady for not making the ram length datums the same across their LnL line, because I have these really fancy adapters for all my dies and I can't swap them from my progressive to single stage and produce the same result - completely defeating the whole point of the damn system for me.
Case gages are where I'm going to argue here. The datum diameter for different shoulders is different across the spectrum of ammunition, and the Sheridan style gage (made off a chambered section of barrel blank) has changed my life to where I'd like to get one for .223 and .308. Not because it tells me about my brass (what the traditional Wilson gages are good for), but because I can SEE where my bullet is relative to the throat. Being able to load to a max length for a SAAMI spec chamber would be a big improvement over trying to remember which of my rifles has the tightest throat and loading to it (they tend to rotate into other people's collections, so that barrel is a moving target).
Granted, this only works on a chamber that's the same or tighter than your rifles, but it's a big help when dealing with semi-wildcat's since there's about 8 bullets listed for the .458S in published data, and I'm not using any of them besides the ballistic tip.
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Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
For the same reason I have a micrometer on my powder bars. I like repeatability and not having to guess a bunch to get to where I want to be.
No matter what you read on the intarweb CCI450s and CCI41s ARE NOT BALLISTICALLY IDENTICAL with H110! I'm also not a intarweb lawyer so I don't argue with anyone who is.
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Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
But you still have to weight the charges.
I guess it just never bothered me to make a few moves before getting things perfect. You're actually better off throwing more loads with a volume based system to settle the powder prior to doing the weight checks anyway, so it's helping, not hurting by doing more to get it fine tuned.
If I could rig my Lyman 1200 to throw charges for my progressive press, I'd do it. My stick loads are usually off +/-.5gr via the thrower and that can make for warm loads in the odd military brass that I missed sorting on .223.
I guess it just never bothered me to make a few moves before getting things perfect. You're actually better off throwing more loads with a volume based system to settle the powder prior to doing the weight checks anyway, so it's helping, not hurting by doing more to get it fine tuned.
If I could rig my Lyman 1200 to throw charges for my progressive press, I'd do it. My stick loads are usually off +/-.5gr via the thrower and that can make for warm loads in the odd military brass that I missed sorting on .223.
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Re: Micrometer seating dies - why?
....I don't have any yet, but I intend to get one for each of the rifle calibers I own/load for...
...I see it as improving my efficiency when I start a loading session, taking less time to set up / reset my dies when I switch bullet types for a particular caliber.
....do I need them?? ...well, most fellas have all kinds of doo-dads just because we can and so we do, take a look in your safe ...
...I see it as improving my efficiency when I start a loading session, taking less time to set up / reset my dies when I switch bullet types for a particular caliber.
....do I need them?? ...well, most fellas have all kinds of doo-dads just because we can and so we do, take a look in your safe ...
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