CFE 300 BLK first thoughts update 1/28/17

[workky]

Yea, I have a great bullet puller!!!

I'm going out here in the next hour or so to test these.

I really didn't know how short you could go before you started having issues with feeding, i assume that is different from gun to gun?

Im going to keep my powders 11.3-12.1 in increments and look at velocities, if unacceptable at max charge, ill push the bullets down a little further and run again.

[workky]

Ok, running them down defiantly helped out a lot. I think I got something to work with now.
Velocities were up and were they needed to be. I hand loaded a few to test tomorrow.
The 11.5 grains at 2.03 on the sierra 220 grain prohunter produced very good results. Tomorrows loads are 11.5 at 2.00 OAL. You were right, this powder does not like space, it likes to be compressed a little.
Wish I knew how to check the actual pressures other than looking at the primer.

[bangbangping]

Wish I knew how to check the actual pressures other than looking at the primer.

Here ya go: https://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/me ... ry_Code=PT

You're welcome.

[workky]

Sweet, thanks

[Alphawolf082]

Wish I knew how to check the actual pressures other than looking at the primer.

Here ya go: https://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/me ... ry_Code=PT

You're welcome.

Damn, that's pretty cool... I'm going to go ahead and forget I saw that this is out there.

[johnhefley]

Dellet:

I PM'd Rebel with a query, and he kindly answered my questions. I indicated that I had started down the CFE BLK path, and he encouraged me to post my findings here.

First, my disclaimers:
1. I'm not new to reloading. But I'm quite new to rifle reloading. And I'm only 100-150 rounds into 300 Blackout. So call me a newbie. But do it nicely.
2. With the above, I'm not a benchrest shooter. I've read a lot about reloading voodoo, but I don't understand most of it. Think of me as more of a shotgun/pistol reloader.
3. Despite #2, I'm a precision shooting nut. I'm always trying to improve my shooting skills. But most of my efforts have been undertaken with factory loads.
4. My reloader is a Dillon Precision XL650 (with every bell and whistle imaginable). I admit that the XL650 is a production machine, not a benchrest shooter's choice.
5. I have "hand trickled" my powder loads from a brass casing into my digital scale to get them as accurate and consistent as possible.

So if there are any haters or "experts" reading this, be nice. OK? I'll take on whatever useful information or observations you have. I'm not too tolerant of internet snark, however.

I DO use a Chrony chronograph. I try to set it approximately 12' from the rifle's muzzle.

The rifle:
Hardened Arms 300 BLK 10.5" barrel (pistol length gas tube) and welded and pinned 7" "Widow" suppressor.
Trijicon Accupoint 3-9X40 with red triangle reticle
Geissele SSA-E Trigger

The rest:
"Dog-Gone Good" front and rear bags

Here's the setup: I recently purchased an 8 lb. keg of CFE BLK. Friday night I loaded up a batch, and shot it Saturday morning. I only chrono'd them, and didn't check them for accuracy at all. Also, I wanted to check their function in my AR rifle down to very low Muzzle Velocities. As you'll see, the MV's went as low as 706 fps. And the gun cycled perfectly, and the bolt locked back on the last shot.

Last night (Monday night), I loaded up another batch, and took them to the range - shooting them through the chrono at a target 100 yards away. My goal was to load a "typical" subsonic box of bullets. That box of 23 bullets yielded a "best 5-shot group" of 1.318 MOA at 100 yards (according to my very first use of "ON TARGET").

I'll call Saturday's loads "SET 1" and "SET 2", (checking for slow MV performance) and Tuesday's loads (checking for typical subsonic loads and accuracy) "SET 3".

Here goes:

SET 1

Of the first set of 5, my chrono didn't read #1 or #2. So I reset the chrono, and repositioned so the bullet flight was a bit more optimal through the sensors. So I only had 3 bullets chrono'd from set #1.

Saturday's speed of sound at 62 dF should have been around 1120 fps.

Set #1:
Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
9.7 gr. CFE BLK
2.233 COAL
• 885.3 FPS
• 865.2 FPS
• 869.2 FPS

Set #2:
Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
9.0 gr. CFE BLK
2.233 COAL
• 784.7 FPS
• 766.1 FPS
• 739.4 FPS
• 777.5 FPS
• 706.6!! FPS

ALL of these loads cycled just fine!! Including the one at 706.6 fps!!! The bolt locked back, as it should on the last round. This confirms what the Hornady rep told me: CFE BLK produces a larger volume of gas. No question about that!!!

Finally, on the last round, I removed my right earplug. I can confirm that despite being 400 fps BELOW the speed of sound, these rounds sure seem louder than factory subs. I was shooting off of my back deck, so it's like shooting in an echo chamber that magnifies sounds as they bounce off the house, and the hill behind the house. Needless to say, there's a built-in magnification of sound there.

But I've shot other subs off my back deck, and these did seem noticeably louder.

Needless to say, this powder functions just fine subsonic.

Let's step up the powder load, and see how they performed in the 1050 FPS realm. Note that I changed another variable here: I set the bullet deeper in the case.
I meant to go to 2.205 COAL, but I think I mistakenly readjusted the bullet seating die, and ended up at 2.212" COAL (edited to correct the COAL's)

Set #3:

Tuesday's temperature ranged from 30dF-32dF, with a speed of sound between 1084-1087 FPS.

Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
11.0 gr. CFE BLK
2.212" COAL

23 Rounds fired. 3 sighters, and 4 5-shot groups. Here are the Muzzle Velocities in Feet Per Second
1. 1048
2. 1059
3. 1049
4. 1061
5. 1062
6. 1089
7. 1045
8. 1042
9. 1067
10. 1061
11. 1085
12. 1044
13. 1101
14. 1057
15. 1058
16. 1028
17. 1071
18. 1091
19. 1082
20. 1076
21. 1067
22. 1050
23. 1091

This set yielded an ES of 73, Avg. Mv OF 1064, and SD of 18.79.

From the looks of things, I might have had a few bullets go supersonic. Frankly, I didn't notice any difference in the sound between any of the rounds. It is possible that the temperature shown on my phone (for the area) was showing a slightly lower temperature than at the shooting range. In any case, I suppose to keep future rounds safely subsonic, I should consider reducing my loads by .2 grains or so of powder.

I tried to post my best 5-shot 5 group. But it seems not to work for me. If somebody can PM me with a useful clue, I'll try again. But the site didn't seem to like my link to Google photos. I WAS able to post a link to the pic, however.

Anyway, I notice that the black "star" for a couple of the shots looks asymmetrical, which I take to mean that the bullet was not stable. The Hornady rep did tell me that this was not an ideal bullet for my application. However, I'm not too dissatisfied with at least THIS result.
jh

https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/ ... ceN1McaO6d

[dellet]

Dellet:

I PM'd Rebel with a query, and he kindly answered my questions. I indicated that I had started down the CFE BLK path, and he encouraged me to post my findings here.

First, my disclaimers:
1. I'm not new to reloading. But I'm quite new to rifle reloading. And I'm only 100-150 rounds into 300 Blackout. So call me a newbie. But do it nicely.
2. With the above, I'm not a benchrest shooter. I've read a lot about reloading voodoo, but I don't understand most of it. Think of me as more of a shotgun/pistol reloader.
3. Despite #2, I'm a precision shooting nut. I'm always trying to improve my shooting skills. But most of my efforts have been undertaken with factory loads.
4. My reloader is a Dillon Precision XL650 (with every bell and whistle imaginable). I admit that the XL650 is a production machine, not a benchrest shooter's choice.
5. I have "hand trickled" my powder loads from a brass casing into my digital scale to get them as accurate and consistent as possible.

So if there are any haters or "experts" reading this, be nice. OK? I'll take on whatever useful information or observations you have. I'm not too tolerant of internet snark, however.

I DO use a Chrony chronograph. I try to set it approximately 12' from the rifle's muzzle.

The rifle:
Hardened Arms 300 BLK 10.5" barrel (pistol length gas tube) and welded and pinned 7" "Widow" suppressor.
Trijicon Accupoint 3-9X40 with red triangle reticle
Geissele SSA-E Trigger

The rest:
"Dog-Gone Good" front and rear bags

Here's the setup: I recently purchased an 8 lb. keg of CFE BLK. Friday night I loaded up a batch, and shot it Saturday morning. I only chrono'd them, and didn't check them for accuracy at all. Also, I wanted to check their function in my AR rifle down to very low Muzzle Velocities. As you'll see, the MV's went as low as 706 fps. And the gun cycled perfectly, and the bolt locked back on the last shot.

Last night (Monday night), I loaded up another batch, and took them to the range - shooting them through the chrono at a target 100 yards away. My goal was to load a "typical" subsonic box of bullets. That box of 23 bullets yielded a "best 5-shot group" of 1.318 MOA at 100 yards (according to my very first use of "ON TARGET").

I'll call Saturday's loads "SET 1" and "SET 2", (checking for slow MV performance) and Tuesday's loads (checking for typical subsonic loads and accuracy) "SET 3".

Here goes:

SET 1

Of the first set of 5, my chrono didn't read #1 or #2. So I reset the chrono, and repositioned so the bullet flight was a bit more optimal through the sensors. So I only had 3 bullets chrono'd from set #1.

Saturday's speed of sound at 62 dF should have been around 1120 fps.

Set #1:
Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
9.7 gr. CFE BLK
2.233 COAL
• 885.3 FPS
• 865.2 FPS
• 869.2 FPS

Set #2:
Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
9.0 gr. CFE BLK
2.233 COAL
• 784.7 FPS
• 766.1 FPS
• 739.4 FPS
• 777.5 FPS
• 706.6!! FPS

ALL of these loads cycled just fine!! Including the one at 706.6 fps!!! The bolt locked back, as it should on the last round. This confirms what the Hornady rep told me: CFE BLK produces a larger volume of gas. No question about that!!!

Finally, on the last round, I removed my right earplug. I can confirm that despite being 400 fps BELOW the speed of sound, these rounds sure seem louder than factory subs. I was shooting off of my back deck, so it's like shooting in an echo chamber that magnifies sounds as they bounce off the house, and the hill behind the house. Needless to say, there's a built-in magnification of sound there.

But I've shot other subs off my back deck, and these did seem noticeably louder.

Needless to say, this powder functions just fine subsonic.

Let's step up the powder load, and see how they performed in the 1050 FPS realm. Note that I changed another variable here: I set the bullet deeper in the case.
I meant to go to 2.005 COAL, but I think I mistakenly readjusted the bullet seating die, and ended up at 2.12" COAL

Set #3:

Tuesday's temperature ranged from 30dF-32dF, with a speed of sound between 1084-1087 FPS.

Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
11.0 gr. CFE BLK
2.212" COAL

23 Rounds fired. 3 sighters, and 4 5-shot groups. Here are the Muzzle Velocities in Feet Per Second
1. 1048
2. 1059
3. 1049
4. 1061
5. 1062
6. 1089
7. 1045
8. 1042
9. 1067
10. 1061
11. 1085
12. 1044
13. 1101
14. 1057
15. 1058
16. 1028
17. 1071
18. 1091
19. 1082
20. 1076
21. 1067
22. 1050
23. 1091

From the looks of things, I might have had a few bullets go supersonic. Frankly, I didn't notice any difference in the sound between any of the rounds. It is possible that the temperature shown on my phone (for the area) was showing a slightly lower temperature than at the shooting range. In any case, I suppose to keep future rounds safely subsonic, I should consider reducing my loads by .2 grains or so of powder.

I tried to post my best 5-shot 5 group. But it seems not to work for me. If somebody can PM me with a useful clue, I'll try again. But the site didn't seem to like my link to Google photos. I WAS able to post a link to the pic, however.

Anyway, I notice that the black "star" for a couple of the shots looks asymmetrical, which I take to mean that the bullet was not stable. The Hornady rep did tell me that this was not an ideal bullet for my application. However, I'm not too dissatisfied with at least THIS result.
jh

https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/ ... ceN1McaO6d

First and foremost tell that damn Hornady rep that if the 212 ELD is no good for Blackout then he needs to make one that is

Oh and welcome

In a pistol length system this powder is very loud, carbine not so much.

It will cycle just about anything you put under it. I was running some 150 grain bullets in a carbine gas system and they cycled at 800 fps and 1050 fps and 900 fps and just about anything else. The problem is that I was hoping for a low ES, not 400 plus.

From your posted loads your group was 3/4" wide and 1.5" long, 70 fps ES will do that at 100 yards.

If you can, stuff the bullet into the powder, that ELD will take a about a three foot jump and stay reasonably accurate. This powder tho is erratic until it gets compressed has been my experience so far and you just can't seem to compress it too much(more on that later).

I would drop the load back to at least 10.7 grains and see if you can seat the bullet on resting on the powder. I use a fired cased to get a col so I can slip a bullet in the neck on top of a charge, or you can slit the neck. If the ogive of the bullet has not slipped below the top of the neck, I would run the bullet down at least another .015". Run a couple through the chronograph to get an idea of where you are for velocity.

I was running some heavy supers over the weekend and was compressing loads up to .125". The spreads just kept getting tighter.

The Dillon is a good press. The only issue for precision loads is the shell plate. It flexes too much. So if you are sizing without a round across the shell plate in the seating station, your shoulder comes up long by 001-002". Same thing if you seat a bullet without a case in the sizing station, your bullet is seated a couple thousands long.

Their is a member here Ballistic tools, he makes some enhancements for Dillon presses. They help a lot.

https://ballistictools.com/store/dillon ... hancements

[johnhefley]

Thanks, dellet.

I meant to load the bullet .007 deeper, having (kind of) measured the space available above the powder. That .007 difference would have given me a 2.205 COAL. I was trying not to compress the powder at 2.205, but leaving the bullet either just above, or just touching it. In any case, I failed, because my "adjustment" to the bullet seating die left it even higher than 2.205.

I'll dial the bullet seating die down a bit. And I'll reduce the powder charge by .2 or .3 grains. I think that'll do the trick.

I really should switch optics on this rifle for testing as well. The red triangle isn't exactly ideal for precise shooting. In any case, I'm reasonably satisfied with the preliminary accuracy results of that ONE group (remember, there were 4 groups. The other 3 groups weren't quite that stellar! But as the reloads weren't horrible, I think we can blame the shooter. ).

Back to the Evil Lair for more reloading.
jh

[johnhefley]

Well, my first foray into posting on this website led to a couple of typos.

Anyway, I corrected the typos. My subsonics in set #3 were 2.212" COAL. I mis-typed in the text above the recipe, and in a later reply.

In any case, I adjusted my bullet seating die downward, so that the next batch of bullets will be seated so that the bullet ogive starts at the top of the case. That'll make my next batch's COAL 2.178". That's as short as I'm comfortable going. I'm also reducing to 10.8 grains of CFE BLK.

jh

[johnhefley]

I headed out to the range this morning to test out some more loads.

It's 20 dF here, with about a 30 mph. wind. Damn, it was cold!!!! From the interwebs, today's speed of sound is around 1073 fps.

So I didn't really bother trying for super accuracy in my shooting technique, because it was so damn cold. What I did see on the paper seemed consistent with the accuracy I experienced with my loads (above). That is, no apparent loss of accuracy.

For these reloads, I reduced my powder charge by .2 grains, and seated the bullet deeper. I'm not sure how much if any compression I gave the powder. I didn't feel any resistance in my XL650, so I'm assuming it was minimal compression. At my new COAL of 2.18", I think I'm pretty much at minimum, as the case mouth is pretty near the ogive. So I won't be seating my bullets any deeper, I don't think.

Conclusions:
1. The reduction in powder charge was offset by the deeper bullet seating depth. I didn't get the expected drop in muzzle velocity
2. The rounds seemed noticeably quieter, despite being on the threshold of speed of sound in fps.
3. For the next batch, I'll plan to keep the bullet seating dept as-is, and reduce the charge another .3 gr. to 10.5
4. I didn't clean the rifle since the last range trip. This powder is FILTHY. On all 3 sets of 5 bullets, on the first round the bolt failed to go fully go into battery. It'll be clean next time.

The rifle:
Hardened Arms 300 BLK 10.5" barrel (pistol length gas tube) and welded and pinned 7" "Widow" suppressor.
Trijicon Accupoint 3-9X40 with red triangle reticle
Geissele SSA-E Trigger

Here's the load:
Hornady VLD-X 212 gr.
CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450
10.8 gr. CFE BLK
2.18" COAL

15 Rounds fired. Here are the muzzle velocities in Feet Per Second

1. 1068
2. 1105
3. 1090
4. 1095
5. 1105
6. 1047
7. 1078
8. 1082
9. 1096
10. 1076
11. 1061
12. 1093
13. 1086
14. 1090
15. 1138

ES = 91 FPS
AVG = 1087.3 FPS
SD = 21.23