Bump Stock ban

[Sithlord]

Any semi auto rifle or pistol with recoil can be “bump fired” in either well trained hands or poorly trained hands. It’s the hands in between that can’t do it.

Bump stocks and pistol braces do not violate the letter of the law, but the way they are used probably violates the spirit of the law. What allows them right now is only an opinion and that can change at any time. No one wants to challenge that opinion in court that wants to keep them. Right now there’s is a growing number of people who want to get rid of them, who will challenge it.

Research the laws, timing and tactics used to ban automatic knives and you will see history repeating itself.

Dellet, with ALL due respect, the same can be said of pistol braces, and probably thousands of other non-firearms related items.

As with California, the 'bullet button' skirted the law about requiring a tool to detach a magazine. So they passed a new law banning tools. And within minutes of THAT, a new product was created which skirts THAT law.

The reality is that, as BK06 indicated, the MG registry has been closed since '86. Now we have a lot of folks which are finding out about NFA, and enterprising companies find a way to skirt the law. By closing the registry, it makes people want them MORE - no different than drugs, or alcohol in the 30's. If there was a 30-90 day amnesty (which an executive order COULD do), I bet there would be at least 100k lightening link and drop-in auto-sears that would be sent to NFA branch for processing - I'd probably do at least 20-30, just because.

At the same time, I think most of us feel that the NFA (and probably other gun laws) violates the 2nd Amendment.

Dangerous Freedom > Peaceful Slavery.

[dellet]

Any semi auto rifle or pistol with recoil can be “bump fired” in either well trained hands or poorly trained hands. It’s the hands in between that can’t do it.

Bump stocks and pistol braces do not violate the letter of the law, but the way they are used probably violates the spirit of the law. What allows them right now is only an opinion and that can change at any time. No one wants to challenge that opinion in court that wants to keep them. Right now there’s is a growing number of people who want to get rid of them, who will challenge it.

Research the laws, timing and tactics used to ban automatic knives and you will see history repeating itself.

Dellet, with ALL due respect, the same can be said of pistol braces, and probably thousands of other non-firearms related items.

As with California, the 'bullet button' skirted the law about requiring a tool to detach a magazine. So they passed a new law banning tools. And within minutes of THAT, a new product was created which skirts THAT law.

The reality is that, as BK06 indicated, the MG registry has been closed since '86. Now we have a lot of folks which are finding out about NFA, and enterprising companies find a way to skirt the law. By closing the registry, it makes people want them MORE - no different than drugs, or alcohol in the 30's. If there was a 30-90 day amnesty (which an executive order COULD do), I bet there would be at least 100k lightening link and drop-in auto-sears that would be sent to NFA branch for processing - I'd probably do at least 20-30, just because.

At the same time, I think most of us feel that the NFA (and probably other gun laws) violates the 2nd Amendment.

Dangerous Freedom > Peaceful Slavery.

You miss the point entirely.

If you get in a war of words with ATF, you will lose. The braces and the bump stocks were presented basically as an aid for the handicapped. ATF needs to do nothing more than stick to the letter of the law that people are exploiting. You want a pistol brace, bring a note form your doctor.

You want a slide fire, you could be even more screwed. Part of the approval was based on the shooter lacking mobility in a trigger finger. How will you argue that your still pulling the trigger, when by design and probably patent, the intention was to allow someone physically incapable of pulling a trigger, to fire a weapon?

The exact same wording used to get the favorable opinion, can be used to restrict or ban the use of the item. It's just that simple.

If the device had been presented honestly, as a way to have some fun and waste ammo, and then banned after approval, it would much easier to defend. As it is now it's an uphill battle that started with the deceitful way it was presented for approval.

You might as well start arguing for your right to use handicapped parking places, because you'll only be a few seconds.

Concerning the ban on Switchblades, did you look into that?

Here's a quote from the time, 1958. Sound familiar?

“Designed for violence, deadly as a revolver — that’s the switchblade, the ‘toy’ youngsters all over the country are taking up as a fad. Press the button on this new version of the pocketknife and the blade darts out like a snake’s tongue. Action against this killer should be taken now. It’s only a short step from carrying a switchblade to gang warfare.”

A couple of links to read. Study history but do not repeat it.

http://www.knife-expert.com/swbl-leg.txt

https://gizmodo.com/why-switchblades-ar ... 1704050416

[ThreeHundredBlackout]

A bump stock does just that. Pull trigger once, empties the clip. doesnt for me but have seen you tube videos of this in action. So, bump stocks should have been illegal from the start, right?

No it doesn't.

You are actually pulling the trigger multiple times....30 times to be precise for a 30 rd mag. And you have to keep forward pressure for the mechanism to function properly.

please take a moment, read that again and let it sink in. this is critical because of the following.

Any semi auto rifle or pistol with recoil can be “bump fired” in either well trained hands or poorly trained hands. It’s the hands in between that can’t do it.

bump firing is a process which can be done many many many ways. a bump stock is just one tool for it.

however - the only way to ensure that nobody can bump fire a firearm would be to ban all semi-automatic firearms.

which if we're being honest with each other, is exactly what the left wants.




but stop and think about this another way. bump firing is one of many ways to increase the rate of fire(rof) on a semi auto firearm. so if you're going to ban one product that is a ROF modifier, you really have to go after all of them, otherwise the law/regulation wont stand in a court of law. its the same thing they did with the arm braces. it didnt matter what style of brace it was, they all had to be lumped in. So its gonna have to be bump stocks, any "crank" type tools - including the BMF ammo waster for your 10/22, binary trigger systems, and who knows what else.


so the big questions becomes -

1)who and what is going to be the definition of a ROF modifier
2) what exactly will be determined to be an acceptable ROF for any given firearm (or all firearms)

i know especially #2 may seem silly, but its going to have to be defined, again otherwise what limits will the regulation/law follow? to say something is modified - you have to have a baseline to begin from. states that have high capacity magazine bans first had to determine what was acceptable (by enacting magazine limits) before they could say something was "high capacity".

My point was that a bumpstock is not and is impossible to be a machinegun by the definition of the word and also by the simple mechanics of the mechanisms involved.

I know any semi can be bumpfired, i was talking specifically about the slidefire type accessories and how you cant merely just hold down the trigger and that there is no automatic chain reaction started using one, if there was you could let go with your support hand and a chain reaction would continue, but we all know how it would stop.

And I agree about the rate of fire topic there is no Baseline and it is a very dangerous ground to walk on and any laws trying to include that would be very dangerous and would most likely severely hurt if not closed a lot of companies doors.

[Dr.Phil]

Especially in times like these, it is important to put emotion aside and stick together.
Unfortunately, it is once again necessary to update my "Open Letter" regarding the 2nd Amendment.

viewtopic.php?f=149&t=101205

Please feel free to plagiarize my words and use them to educate those that you come across.

[hardcase]

I bought what amounts to a bump fire trigger at a gun show 12-14 years or so ago for $50.00-60.00. It came with a card copied from ATF saying it was legal. You had to change out the trigger and trigger spring to make it work. At the time the only AR I had was an AR 10 and knew I could not handle the recoil of any kind of controlled aim nor the aggravation of taking the trigger apart to put it back to semi-auto aimed fire. It is still around our house somewhere but I'm to cheap to care that much about uncontrolled firing.

[John A.]

I've seen a couple things that I wanted to comment on.

optics planet, love 'em, or hate 'em, is in cooke co, Ill.

They don't sell magazines over 10 rounds because they're not lawful to possess there.

The truth about guns, apparently isn't. They have discredited themselves several times over the last few years spreading false information.

Next up, bump stock bans.

Bump stocks wasn't even a buzzword until vegas. I still believe that it has been covered up and there was a lot more that happened that you'll never hear about. My tin foil hat believes it was a gun running deal gone bad. But is beside the point.

It is in their playbook to politicize and demonize any kind of shooting. More proof that they have to do something. Anything to protect the people.

Yet, the government is largely responsible for allowing these shootings because they have effectually disarmed a large percentage of our most helpless.

Our children.

I blame the politicians more than a blame the guns.

I also don't blame ford when a drunk wrecks and hurts someone. This is really no different.

Until a good hard look has been done about mental health, this will continue, and if nothing changes, then nothing is going to change.

Gun bans wouldn't have stopped murderous and treasonous people from doing anything.

And if a gun ban were to occur, would not stop it.

Just like prohibition didn't stop the flow of booze. Just like the war on drugs hasn't stopped drugs from being smuggled. Just like abolishing slavery and human trafficking.

This is really no different.

Yep. I blame the politicians.

[hardcase]

I just saw that 10 round thing while looking at mags and scopes on Optic Planet. Not the way to support the firearms culture.

[rebel]

https://www.c-span.org/video/?441475-3/ ... re-remarks

[Sithlord]

The comment period for this EO/Rule Change is now open:

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0002-0001

Personally, I submitted 7 specific reasons (below), which you are free to use. I elaborated on each point, however, the gist of each is as follows:

(1) Ex post facto law/ruling (in violation of Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3 of US Constitution) since the ATF previously ruled these were not machine guns
(2) Violation of 5th Amendment (deprived of property without due process) [only lawful options are unwilful destruction or forfeiture]
(3) In their rule under Supplementary Information, Section V: Proposed Rule, paragraph 5, they state:

Finally, it is reasonable to conclude, based on these interpretations, that the term “machinegun” includes a device that allows a semiautomatic firearm to shoot more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger by harnessing the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm to which it is affixed so that the trigger resets and continues firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter.

Since the shooter’s finger (thus the shooter) re-engages and manipulates the trigger, it fails the 2nd portion of the statement.
(4) A person not destroying or forfeiting their property becomes a felon. The same thing occurred when the NFA was passed, and it was found to be in violation of the 5th Amendment (as registration was effectively a self-indictment). Since this rule does not utilize the GCA’s amnesty period, it COULD violate that portion of the 5th Amendment
(5) Since the ATF has ruled that these items are not MGs, banning these devices requires legislation, not rule or interpretation changes
(6) This rule allows other forms of bump-fire, and is thus inconsistent. Law must be precise, and if not, then the individual cannot be held accountable. Since this is a ruling affecting law, it needs to have the same level of consistency.
(7) This appears to be a knee-jerk political response to a one-off event, rather than any actual, meaningful attempt to curtail violent crime, and in so doing, only affects law-abiding citizens.


Regardless of whether you feel that bump-fire stocks are [stupid, ridiculous, a waste of money, skirting the spirit of the law, ...], this is still incrementalism, and wrong. We complained when Obama did it. Complain again now.

Cheers!

[hardcase]

Sithlord,

Really good comments.

I didn't read all of the ATF link as it is typical of government stuff in it's length. Looks like there is no grandfather clause and those who own one are screwed for the cost, plus responsible for distruction.