300 Black scopes

[cwlongshot]

I have a question guys...

I am seeing the real need for a reticule that will combine the unique ballistics of the 300 blk shooting both sonic and sub sonic ammo.

I have a couple Nikon p223 scopes and like them. I see that they also offer a couple P300 scopes. I like the looks of both but only see the 2x7 offered.

Does anyone have one and what do you think?

http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/Niko ... erSub.html

CW

[rjacobs]

My issue with ANY scope with a BDC type reticle, especially a dual BDC like for 300BLK is what is the load the BDC is setup for? Is it what you choose to shoot? Is it setup for the 110g Barnes factory loading and 220g Remington loading? 110g VMAX factory and 208g AMAX factory loadings? etc.... I think you get the point. I have that same issue with 223 or 308 BDC type reticles as they are usually setup for some crappy ammo like XM193, XM855 or a generic M80 147g 308 load, not a match type load that is far more common IMO. I feel BDC type reticles REALLY limit your ammo choices. As soon as you venture outside of what they are designed for the BDC is worthless.

Now if you choose to run those loads and only those loads that the BDC reticle is setup for, great, but I think most people are probably running something else, or they run a ton of different loads so a BDC type reticle is worthless.

I had this conversation with the head of Int. sales for Trijicon when he was showing me their new dual reticle 300BLK ACOG at SHOT and even he admitted it wasnt a great solution since it was only setup for 2 loads(I cant remember the super load, but the subs were the 220g Remington loading). He said they chose the two biggest commercial loadings(it was either black tips or 125g accutips at the time, and it was for sure 220g Remington) and designed it based on that. Probably "the best" they could do, but he said they were hoping to get something so you could individually zero each reticle so you could customize it for your load. If they can get this down, I think they would have a winner personally. I dont know how an ACOG works so I dont even know if thats possible. Its obviously NOT possible with a normal scope and cross hairs. It might be possible with something like an Aimpoint or EoTech with dual emitters.

My opinion is get something with a standard reticle and dials, know your dials, have a chart, etc... and when you put a different load in the gun(which happens often for 300BLK) dial your dial and shoot away. I have a 1-4x on a QD mount that is zero'd for 110g black tips. I have dial settings for 110g VMAX, 115g FMJ Remington, 125g SMK's, 125g Remington Accutips, 125g Nosler BT's, 150g FMJBT, 208g AMAX, and 220g SMK's. Just a single small card on the mount with the elevation adjustments to put me back on zero. The 110g VMAX is pretty much the same as the Black Tip, but everything else has more drop due to slower speed and more mass so everything is a positive dial. Takes 2 seconds to look at the card and dial. Took a bit of work to get the card made up.

[hunter2]

I have just never understood all that dialing. Just get a mil dot, bdc, etc. Shoot it for your load or loads and record the distance at that mark. Range, 435 yds = 5th dot shoot, etc.....

[rjacobs]

I have just never understood all that dialing. Just get a mil dot, bdc, etc. Shoot it for your load or loads and record the distance at that mark. Range, 435 yds = 5th dot shoot, etc.....

using subtension's is also good to a point. If you have a good reticle where your subtensions are easy to see, its easy. Ive seen to many reticles though where the sub-tensions were basically useless they were so small. BDC is to much of a compromise for me because somebody else picked the load to set the BDC to.

It takes me less time to dial than to think about using sub-tensions honestly. I also like to use the cross hairs as it give ME a more accurate shot, especially when trying to hold for wind. I dont dial wind since it changes to quickly.

[razabak]

Get nikons free app (it's called Spot on) and you can use the hold overs for ANY load and ANY reticle. Print out one chart for subs and one for supers and tape them on the scope and you art GTG.

If you have something other than a Nikon get an app like strelok and do the same. I use a Leopold 3-9 mil dot and it works great.

When these apps make it so simple it's beyond me why anyone would buy a BLK specific optic.

[cwlongshot]

Did you read about the scope link I added RJ?

I know what you mean and understand the context. The scope I have has a 1 min dot and 10 min circle and a post. Just no hash marks. It works and I do like it, but I would also like a lil more power.

IMHO a mil dot or better yet a reticule tailored to the caliber. (Usually by vel and that's rough on a caliber that runs from 1050 thru 2500 fps) Like the BDC would be great. Coupled with the target turrets I would do like you suggest with those turrets. This is what we have done since forever.

Read up on this scope and please come back with an opinion, sounds like you have some knowledge to share. I would appreciate that imput once you see/understand more about this new reticule and its supporting SPOT ON app for smart phones. I have two 3x P223 scopes and LOVE the app and the thing is real nice. tells me exactly where each hash mark hits based on the vel of the ammo I am shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8vGdTk4gQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjntIksJ9O0

CW

[razabak]

I guess if you are target shooting and have all day the dials can be more precise. But for hunting it seems like if it takes you 5 seconds to range the deer then fumble for the right dial clicks, odds are the deer will give you 3 seconds.

I prefer to use the dots. Just seems way quicker to me.

[farm use]

I have a P300 on one of my blkout. I really didn't like it to start with but after the other day its growing on me. I like to be able to zero my scope the use hash marks or mil dots for my drops for both sub's and supers. I zeroed at 50 yrds with sub's using the 2nd cross bar down, that put my supers dead on with the cross hair at 50 and 100 yrds. Then checked sub's at 100 yrds and use the 3rd cross bar down for dead on. Worked great. That's with my reloads. Conclusion... Supers using cross hair at 50 and 100 yrds, sub's 2nd cross bar at 50 and 3rd cross bar at 100 yrds. Now I need to try it at 150 and 200 yrds. For the money its not bad. I have a Weaver tactical grand slam 3x10 mil mil on my other blkout and really like it for sub's and super using the mil dots.

[rjacobs]

Im familiar with the Nikon Spot On app and what it does. JBM Ballistics provides "similar" numbers although not as user friendly and requires you to know a little more about your equipment(your scope reticle mainly) as it spits out generic charts based on what you tell it and you have to translate those over to your scope.

With the scope you put the link up to, since its not a standard MIL or MOA scope you HAVE to use their website(do they have an iphone/android app?). BUT with JBM(or other ballistics calculators like shooter) you can do the same thing for a standard MIL or MOA scope with subtensions.

On that particular scope, using 220g Remington(I'm just using that particular load as an example since it was easy to come up with just messing with the website), the drops are wacky as all hell IMO(with a 75 yard zero, which is a GREAT zero for subs BTW) you get:
91
106
124
142
164
189
216
242
276

Those are WACKY and how the hell are you going to remember such off the wall numbers? Your going to print a chart with those numbers on it and hope you look at the chart and go, ok the 6th dot is 189, ok which one is the 6th dot, I think 1, 2, 3, etc... Time consuming IMO. I can look at my standard MIL chart for my load, go "5.5 mils", look into the scope, look at the 6, back .5, and im at 5.5... No guessing, no counting, etc...

I can do the same thing with JBM(or shooter or other app) with a standard MOA or MIL reticle.

Just to use a quick JBM calculation to show how you can hold with a MIL reticle, same way you can hold with the Nikon reticle:
220g SMK, 1050 FPS, 75 yard zero(same way Nikon app was setup so its a fair comparison):
100 yards: 1 mil
150 yards: 3.2 mil
200 yards: 5.5 mil
250 yards: 7.9 mil
300 yards: 10.3 mil

So lets simplify because I cant personally hold .1 mil or whatever on a reticle. Most mil scopes are subtensioned in .5 mil, some are .1, but they get BUSY. I think .5 is about the most common.
100 yards: 1 mil
150 yards: 3 mil
200 yards: 5.5 mil
250 yards: 8 mil
300 yards: 10 mil(or 10.5 if you like)

With something like my Vortex PST 4-16 MIL scope I could hold(not talking dialing AT ALL) all the way to 10 MIL(subtensions to 9, top of black bar is 10 mil) so I could do the exact same thing as the Nikon scope simply knowing my ballistics.

With a standard MIL or MOA scope I can range targets, I doubt thats possible(it may be, I dont know enough about the scopes, but I doubt it) with the Nikon or any BDC scope because you dont have equal subtensions, they are getting larger the further down the reticle you go to account for the bigger drop numbers as you get out in distance and the bullet slows.

I also now have a scope thats more versatile if I want to put it on a different gun in the future.

Like I said earlier, you can achieve the exact same thing using a regular MOA or MIL reticle scope(with or without dials) and holds just using a website like JBM or one of the various apps for iphone or android like Shooter to give you drops at distances and just use the mil numbers to hold. What Nikon is doing with its app and its "bdc" isnt really rocket science, they are just giving you the numbers for the dots and they are your only source for those numbers because nobody else knows the spacing of the dots because they arent a standard. I also like the option to range targets with my reticle, which, like I said, I dont think is possible with a BDC type reticle(again, maybe it is). I can take the normal MIL or MOA scope off of one gun and put it on another, re-zero and re-run ballistics tables and now I have holds or dials.

[rjacobs]

I guess if you are target shooting and have all day the dials can be more precise. But for hunting it seems like if it takes you 5 seconds to range the deer then fumble for the right dial clicks, odds are the deer will give you 3 seconds.

I prefer to use the dots. Just seems way quicker to me.

I agree for hunting using holds is better, which can be achieved using a ballistics calculator and knowing your holds, which is the same thing the Nikon app is giving you(distances for each dot).