From Supersonic to Subsonic

Discussion about rifles in 300 AAC BLACKOUT (7.62x35mm), hosted by the creator of the cartridge.

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Dr.Phil
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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by Dr.Phil » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:10 am

Mgoirea wrote:Lehigh 300BLK is more effective than any .45ACP round out there. Mainly because they get a long bullet to work with. However, it's still operating in the momentum regime, which isn't what I'd want a gun to do, especially one as big as a rifle.
I continue to be impressed with the Lehigh Defense 194 grain Maximum Expansion bullet.
Image
It is a true marvel of modern engineering and is currently the only projectile that I would trust for subsonic 300 BLK home defense.
There are plenty of videos on YouTube showing terminal ballistic tests if you are interested.
A nice unplanned feature of this bullet is that it is also barrier blind.
Meaning, the projectile stays in tact while punching through such things as wood & sheet rock, and will then reliably expand after entering soft tissue.
This is a double edged sword though.
It is entirely plausible that this bullet could miss its intended target in you home, travel through your several walls in your home, enter the wall of a nearby home and achieve expansion after impacting a sleeping neighbor.

There is a new player in the subsonic expanding 300 BLK market as well.
Image
The subsonic 300 BLK Trident from G2 Research shows some promise.
There are some cool YouTube videos that show some ballistic testing.
Image
http://www.youtube.com/embed/LTwCV4RBS38?rel=0
I would wait until it has proven itself as reliably feeding in an AR.

Anyhow...
Subsonic 300 BLK home defense can be reliably achieved.
The cost of these projectiles / ammunition is considerable though.
Lehigh Defense 194 Grain ME Ammunition is $50 per box of 20 or $77 for a box of 50 unloaded bullets.
That works out to about $1.54 per projectile or $2.50 per loaded round...
Last edited by Dr.Phil on Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by RDA » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:32 pm

Dr.Phil wrote:There are some cool YouTube videos that show some ballistic testing.
Image
http://www.youtube.com/embed/LTwCV4RBS38?rel=0
I would wait until it has proven itself as reliably feeding in an AR.
And anyone that doesn't know yet why the 300 BLK case mouth gets dented, the slo mo here is pretty good:

http://youtu.be/LTwCV4RBS38?t=50s

Great thread by the way.

Guest762
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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by Guest762 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:04 pm

Mgoirea wrote:Lehigh 300BLK is more effective than any .45ACP round out there. Mainly because they get a long bullet to work with. However, it's still operating in the momentum regime, which isn't what I'd want a gun to do, especially one as big as a rifle.
I would say that bullet hasn't been around long enough to justify a statement like that. All the ballistics gellitin testing in the world still doesn't trump real world data. You can't believe everything you hear and only about half of what you see.
I will admit the testing is impressive but I did notice that if the hollow point fills up(just like with any hollow point)expansion doesn't occur.

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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by JeffWard » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:27 pm

Dr.Phil wrote: The cost of these projectiles / ammunition is considerable though.
Lehigh Defense 194 Grain ME Ammunition is $50 per box of 20 or $77 for a box of 50 unloaded bullets.
That works out to about $1.54 per projectile or $2.50 per loaded round...
If I were to choose subsonic for my self-defense... I'm not sure $50 would be too much to spend for a potential life-saving device! Even $100 for a 40-round P-Mag full.

It's amazing how little people are willing to invest in true self-defense ammo. If you have a gun in your home because you legitimately believe someone might invade it and make an attempt on your life... I think $50-$100 is a pretty f-ing LOW price to pay.

That said... My self-defense ammo is Barnes Hog-Hammer... It'll expand FINE against a 2-legged pig at in-home distances from my 8.25". LOL

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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by rjacobs » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:01 pm

Dr.Phil wrote:
There is a new player in the subsonic expanding 300 BLK market as well.
Image
The subsonic 300 BLK Trident from G2 Research shows some promise.
There are some cool YouTube videos that show some ballistic testing.
Image
http://www.youtube.com/embed/LTwCV4RBS38?rel=0
I would wait until it has proven itself as reliably feeding in an AR.
Always good to have another player in the market, but this one appears to have over penetration issues as every test exited the back of his 16" block. To be fair it didnt look like in some it exited all that fast so might not have gone to far. Also his ballistics gel may or may not be up to standard as I think I read somewhere that real ballistics gel is never clear, so his ballistics gel may be a bit soft leading to deeper penetration than is actually going to occur in calibrated gel.

I know the FBI handgun penetration is 12 inch min with 18 inch max, but I wonder if that changes for rifle. I would think it would have to, but I dont know. But again, with these rounds, I would think we would be looking for "handgun" type penetration anyway.
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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by dtom29 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:48 pm

JeffWard wrote:
It's amazing how little people are willing to invest in true self-defense ammo. If you have a gun in your home because you legitimately believe someone might invade it and make an attempt on your life... I think $50-$100 is a pretty f-ing LOW price to pay.JeffWard
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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by Guest762 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:59 pm

3400 dollar pistol and a 30 dollar box of bullets. :mrgreen:

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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by voip-1 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:11 pm

Guest762 wrote:3400 dollar pistol and a 30 dollar box of bullets. :mrgreen:
What's worse is the person with budget AR and FMJ ammo who lives in the burbs and thinks its a good HD solution.

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Re: From Supersonic to Subsonic

Post by Southern 300 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:56 am

Guest762 wrote:
Mgoirea wrote:Lehigh 300BLK is more effective than any .45ACP round out there. Mainly because they get a long bullet to work with. However, it's still operating in the momentum regime, which isn't what I'd want a gun to do, especially one as big as a rifle.
I would say that bullet hasn't been around long enough to justify a statement like that. All the ballistics gellitin testing in the world still doesn't trump real world data. You can't believe everything you hear and only about half of what you see.
I will admit the testing is impressive but I did notice that if the hollow point fills up(just like with any hollow point)expansion doesn't occur.
That was a great video, but I noticed a sixteen inch barrel, reuse of gelatin blocks and what may have been greater distances than someone would encounter in your average house. I also noticed the permanent wound channel was completely unimpressive.

Real world experience is where the real results are determined. Lab data is interesting but not what I would rely on if home defense results of ammo are in fact so important.

Is it possible the over penetration issues would be diminished when an sbr or pistol length barrel are used with the same load?

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