300BlkTalk

All things 300 AAC BLACKOUT
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Well the first rifle i bought was an SA85m ak47. i had a one foot square of .25" plate steel and it never failed to penetrate it i had a plate of steel that looked like swiss cheese would the 300 blk not do he same im older now and dont really just shoot at stuff to see what will happen as i once did but id be very disappointed if it wouldnt do the same as an ak i was sold on the blk being basically an 7.62x39mm that runs with 556 parts?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:12 pm 
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zpat wrote:
I was talking about Barrier Penetration, not barrier blind. I simply referred to the Barnes 50 TSX Black Hills as being barrier blind AND barrier penetrating.

BP is different than AP.

M855 is very good BP, poor barrier blind.


Ok, well, then 300 BLK is very barrier blind, but is not good for defeating steel plates. 5.56mm is less barrier blind but more able to penetrate plate then 300 BLK or 308 Win. 204 Ruger is probably better still on plate.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:41 pm 
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It feels like you (and others) are getting very defensive about my comments/tests, so I'm sorry for whatever I said that has made it feel like I'm trying to pick the 300blk apart. Remember, I'm a fan, not a nay sayer and I've invested already quite a bit in this platform. What I'm trying to better understand is how will 300blk do against barriers in general--I could really care less about "plate", unless it is a reinforced door, etc. I did it as a way to compare rounds' penetration capabilities with a material that is very objective vs. concrete blocks that will be dramatically different based upon where they are hit (like Vickers did). Is the steel test I did representative of barriers in general, or is it flawed somehow as a representative of other barriers out in the real world? Is the test Vickers did representative? Are there other 300blk rounds coming down the pipe that will be better against barriers (and also be BB I hope), that aren't going to be illegal for civilians? Assuming the barnes vortx is the leading BB and BP round currently, what depths of barriers can a user reasonably expect it to be able to penetrate of: wood, glass, aluminum, steel, dry wall, etc.? I know that if it does penetrate, it will hold together and expand well, but what I need to know first of all is will it actually get through the barrier? I'd imagine these are all questions any serious user of this round would want to know.. and if not, well I sure as hell do as a user for SD/HD. I'd really like to know in advance that when I'm shooting at a bad guy behind a solid oak door in my home, is he going to be hit or is he going to just laugh at me? My secondary concern is if the damn round expanded or held together.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:05 am 
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zpat wrote:
It feels like you (and others) are getting very defensive about my comments/tests, so I'm sorry for whatever I said that has made it feel like I'm trying to pick the 300blk apart. Remember, I'm a fan, not a nay sayer and I've invested already quite a bit in this platform. What I'm trying to better understand is how will 300blk do against barriers in general--I could really care less about "plate", unless it is a reinforced door, etc. I did it as a way to compare rounds' penetration capabilities with a material that is very objective vs. concrete blocks that will be dramatically different based upon where they are hit (like Vickers did). Is the steel test I did representative of barriers in general, or is it flawed somehow as a representative of other barriers out in the real world? Is the test Vickers did representative? Are there other 300blk rounds coming down the pipe that will be better against barriers (and also be BB I hope), that aren't going to be illegal for civilians? Assuming the barnes vortx is the leading BB and BP round currently, what depths of barriers can a user reasonably expect it to be able to penetrate of: wood, glass, aluminum, steel, dry wall, etc.? I know that if it does penetrate, it will hold together and expand well, but what I need to know first of all is will it actually get through the barrier? I'd imagine these are all questions any serious user of this round would want to know.. and if not, well I sure as hell do as a user for SD/HD. I'd really like to know in advance that when I'm shooting at a bad guy behind a solid oak door in my home, is he going to be hit or is he going to just laugh at me? My secondary concern is if the damn round expanded or held together.


Paragraphs make things much easier to read. It is best to place a newline when the subject changes.

"It feels like you (and others) are getting very defensive about my comments/tests"

I think we feel like you are asking the wrong question as virtually no one cares about shooting steel plates. I don't mind that 300 BLK cannot penetrate steel plate as well as 5.56mm. When one designs a bullet, they pick things they want it to do well. No one in the government has ever expressed an interest in penetrating steel plate or to make the bullet better for that. The head of ballistics for a major federal agency, however, told me that they had no desire for an AP bullet and they only wanted barrier blind bullets. Had we designed the bullets to be better on steel plate, they would be less barrier blind.

"What I'm trying to better understand is how will 300blk do against barriers in general--I could really care less about "plate", unless it is a reinforced door, etc."

I posted that image of the FBI barrier test results. You can use that to see how 300 BLK does against barriers in general. It does better than the best 5.56mm.

" Is the steel test I did representative of barriers in general, or is it flawed somehow as a representative of other barriers out in the real world? "

It is only representative of steel plate. Someone even showed that 300 BLK *subsonic* would shoot through a utility pole: viewtopic.php?f=128&t=65654

"Are there other 300blk rounds coming down the pipe that will be better against barriers (and also be BB I hope), that aren't going to be illegal for civilians?"

The Barnes 300 BLK is already more barrier blind than the best 5.56mm. You seem to be asking about AP ammunition - designed to penetrate steel plate. I don't know of any AP 300 BLK ammunition being in the works - and that is only because no one cares about AP ammunition for one good reason - there is no such thing as a barrier blind AP round that has controlled penetration - and barrier blind with controlled penetration is what people want.

"Assuming the barnes vortx is the leading BB and BP round currently, what depths of barriers can a user reasonably expect it to be able to penetrate of: wood, glass, aluminum, steel, dry wall, etc.?"

There is no govt agency that buys bullets that way, unless it is AP ammunition, so no one optimizes bullets for that, except for AP ammunition.

"will it actually get through the barrier"

Barrier testing is by FBI protocol and specifies drywall, plywood, auto glass, and car door. These are a certain thickness, and the test is how much bare gel the bullet penetrates after the barrier - not how thick a barrier it will go through. Thickness testing is only for AP ammunition.

"I'd imagine these are all questions any serious user of this round would want to know.. "

I have never seen anyone want to know maximum barrier thickness, except related to AP ammunition. Barrier blind ammunition is never specified that way.

"I'd really like to know in advance that when I'm shooting at a bad guy behind a solid oak door in my home, is he going to be hit or is he going to just laugh at me? "

There is no wood door it won't go through. It will be stopped by steel plate or concrete / stone / brick.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:53 am 
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how many acres of woods can my weapon penetrate and seriously maim or kill someone i had no idea was on the other side? What is the best bullet to do this? I dont want that one.

i will get angry when no one answers me.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:40 am 
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Since we are talking penetration on hogs in the OP.

My old 45/70 with 405gr SP's was terrible at penetration on steel. Its just too slow. However, on actual game it will punch right on through most any hog that stood in front of it. Really can't judge performance on game by shooting steel. Same thing for 44MAG with 300gr hard cast, no penetration on steel, but line up the critters side by side.

BTW, if a bullet passes easily through steel (like M855) its generally a lousy hunting bullet.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:58 am 
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Don't care about steel, walls, car doors, or shooting holes through trees. I will continue to kill deer as I have for the last 12 years with my 300 Whisper now 300 Blackout. So far we don't have Wild Pigs in my part of VA but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot one if we did. Deer about eat us out of house and home on our farm. We have had kill permits for the past 20 years. I don't keep track of numbers but feel the 300 has been used to take 10-20 a year. Its a real deer killer. All the home defense needs thankfully is a non issue where I live. If it were, I feel my Benelli SBE 8 shot loaded up with 00 Buck would be the gun I would use. Never Gonna Happen in my world.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:17 am 
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zpat wrote:
barnbumm wrote:
Consideration for military applications will hinge on barrier penetration as well as soft tissue trauma. More suitable projectiles will be developed in time but it is going to be difficult to overcome the large diameter of the 300blk coupled with the relatively small case volume.


Is it going to be necessary to have a steel penetrating core version of 300blk in order to get better penetration seeing as the Barnes bullet apparently can't offer it? seeing as the 300blk is available as a pistol, that likely would be deemed AP and not be available to civilians--but that's another issue. Is this problem solveable for the 300blk, or is it the view that it is a "non-problem" because the 300blk wasn't designed for any real level of barrier penetration anyways and if you want any sort of real BP you need to enlist another platform/caliber altogether?


I have pulled USGI 163gr 30-06 AP bullets. From time to time I see them and wonder about trying them in the 300 BLK, but what stops me is my understanding that for me to do so would create illegal ammunition (AP pistol ammo). Am I correct in my understanding?

I currently either load and shoot them in 30-06 or sell them at gunshows in bags of 25, making an obscene profit.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:50 am 
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So because someone has made a pistol that shoots rifle cartridges, that particular caliber with AP loading is an "AP pistol round"? According to that logic you were already in possession of illegal ammo before you pulled it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiXaRq6rzSc

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:29 am 
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JacksonBrowne wrote:
So because someone has made a pistol that shoots rifle cartridges, that particular caliber with AP loading is an "AP pistol round"? According to that logic you were already in possession of illegal ammo before you pulled it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiXaRq6rzSc

Image


The AP laws are very, very strange, you should read them thoroughly a few times. You can own but not mfg, you can mfg but only sell to certain folks, etc. etc.

There are exceptions for 855 and 3006, is my understanding. I'm not sure if pulling 3006 and putting into another caliber/weapon justifies MFG, I'm guessing yes and it violates the grandfathering, but that'd be a question better posed to the ATF through a determination letter, of which I'm betting there is already one floating around somewhere.


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