Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

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zpat
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Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by zpat »

First, let me say that I'm a big 300blk fan, and just put together my third 300blk rifle/replacement for my 5.56. I think it makes a fantastic HD weapon with or without a can. This weekend I hope to finally try it on some hogs, as I've been meaning to stop using my .308 and use the blk on them.

Anyways, like some of you, I saw the Larry Vicker's episode of TacTV a few weeks ago where he was comparing the 300blk, 5.56 and AK47. A lot of what he did annoyed me, as I thought it unfairly characterized the 300blk. The part that I was really perplexed with was when he did the conrete block shoot and the 300blk didn't do squat. So yesterday, I tested the 300blk vs .308 and 5.56 on some steel plates A36 @ 50 yards, and I was totally shocked:

5.56
Easily penetrated 7 gauge, .25" and .3125" with Black Hills 50 gr Barnes TSX, Hornady TAP T2 70gr and M855 from a 14.5" Noveske Afghan. The M855 managed to get through a piece .375" but the other two could not. The M855 was stopped by a 1/2" plate, but it came pretty close to getting through.

308
Easily penetrated 7 gauge, .25", .3125" and .375" with Fed Gold Match 175gr, Black Hills Gold Nosler Accubond 180gr and Hornady TAP LE A-Max 155gr from a 21" Noveske N6 7.62. All of the rounds were stopped by the 1/2" plate, but they all came very close to getting through.

300BLK
Barely penetrated 7 gauge with Remington Accutip and Remington OTM 125gr with a 10.2" Noveske. Almost penetrated the 7 gauge with UMC 115gr. Subsonic 220gr got stopped cold in the tracks by 7 gauge, as one would expect. What I didn't expect was that ALL of the rounds were stopped by .25" including Barnes VorTX, Accutip, PNW 147 and Remington OTM. None of them were even close to getting through and barely made a noticeable dent in the metal.

I haven't fully absorbed what this means but it certainly has me thinking about its use against big hogs, barriers of varying thickness, IIIa and III vests, etc.

My velocity meter is at Chrony being worked on right now, so I didn't grab any FPS figures from these rounds.

I'd really love to hear from some knowledgeable folks why this doesn't matter, especially in a world where barrier blind is becoming more and more important, if not at least "trendy" to be ready against.
rjacobs
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by rjacobs »

Steel penetrating ability means jack shit to me. You CANT compare that to what a round does in a body. Do you think ANY pistol round would have penetrated much of that steel? Lots of cases of pistol rounds killing people and animals dead though.

The 300blk is limited in its velocity and that is what it takes to go through steel. You are comparing a round that at best runs 2400fps to rounds that routinely exceed 3000fps. That 600fps difference is TREMENDOUS when it comes to penetrating steel.

Plus, like I said, who cares what a round does through steel? If the round is proven to do great damage when entering flesh to me, that is WAY more important.
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Whole Bunches
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by Whole Bunches »

I've never shot a hog. I've never seen one while hunting. I've never examined a dead one, so I don't know how tough the meat and bones are. I have shot a total of 8 deer (3 with 300 Whisper and 5 with the 300 BLK). 3 were with Sierra 125gr Pro Hunters; 5 were with Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tips. Muzzle velocities went from 2161fps to 2252fps (varied by rifle). Distances the deer were shot went from 29yd to 187yd. Average distance calculates to 91yd. All deer had either spine, lungs, and/or heart hit. With both lungs only hit, the typical deer went 40-50yd before dropping. The only bullet recovered was the 187yd shot; its bullet (Nosler) went through about 14" of deer before it stopped (clipped the spine, through lungs, through stomach) just under the hide at the belly. The farthest a bullet penetrated before exiting a deer was 18". From field dressing the deer and examining them, all bullets expanded.

That having been said, until I find out otherwise, I would not hesitate to hunt hogs with a 300 BLK and would probably use the Nosler 125gr BT as they are accurate, and I can usually put the bullet where I want to.
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firedavis
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by firedavis »

Steel doesnt mean anything to me either.
Shot this guy dead center in the plate and he dropped like a rock.
Image

Shot this one quartering to me and broke his shoulder.
Image

I wouldnt shoot them in the shoulder with nosler green tips but the barnes arent phased by the shoulder of the big hogs I have shot. I have killed close to 30 hogs this season and everyone I have shot with the blackout is dead. Here is another one that was a brute and I got complete pass thru and he died within seconds.
Image

I wouldnt worry about steel.
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300Blk
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by 300Blk »

Steel penetration is both volocity and diameter of the bullet. A smaller bullet puts the force on a smaller area.

On soft targets, I gel tested many bullets. The conclusion was that most penetrated about 22 inches. That is great for hunting and you would neither want more or less.

For people the FBI likes 12-18.

If you want to optimize a bullet for steel, it ends up a worse bullet for soft targets. The fact that 300 BLK is not optimized for steel helps make it better for actual targets.
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66427vette
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by 66427vette »

If I had to shoot through steel I would break out a 50.
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zpat
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by zpat »

barnbumm wrote:Consideration for military applications will hinge on barrier penetration as well as soft tissue trauma. More suitable projectiles will be developed in time but it is going to be difficult to overcome the large diameter of the 300blk coupled with the relatively small case volume.
This is where I was coming from.

For the 5.56, you can shoot with ammo that has very poor barrier penetration but performs relatively well in tissue. On the other hand, one of the leading barrier blind/bp cartridges is the Barnes 50 TSX from Black Hills, according to DrGKR. I can understand the 300blk have a variety of cartridges/bullets that perform well in tissue only, but to not have one that is able to penetrate fairly small barriers was shocking to me personally. The most shocking of it all was that the cartridge most likely to be the BP cartridge (its equivalent for the 5.56 is one of the top 3), the barnes vortx, performed the same as all the rest and wasn't able to get through a mere .25" of steel, let alone even dent it substantially.

Put steel aside, as it is just a representation, what else would the 300blk not be able to penetrate that one would expect a rifle to be able to penetrate? IIIa? Thick wood? Certain car doors? A few layers of dry wall? I have no idea, has anyone identified these compared to 5.56 and .308? I would definitely like to know this for a SD/HD scenario, as I'm somewhat aware of what the 5.56 and .308 can penetrate.

Is it going to be necessary to have a steel penetrating core version of 300blk in order to get better penetration seeing as the Barnes bullet apparently can't offer it? seeing as the 300blk is available as a pistol, that likely would be deemed AP and not be available to civilians--but that's another issue. Is this problem solveable for the 300blk, or is it the view that it is a "non-problem" because the 300blk wasn't designed for any real level of barrier penetration anyways and if you want any sort of real BP you need to enlist another platform/caliber altogether?
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Redbear
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by Redbear »

I'm just starting out with my 300blk and have been all over the web including lots here. I agree steel don't equal live tissue, but wasn't one of the selling points barrier penetration? Myself, I figured people were comparing v-max blk vs fmj 5.56 etc and that the black tips would penetrate fine.
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300Blk
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by 300Blk »

Zpat - barrier blind does not mean that the bullet can shoot through 1/4 steel. It means it can pass though the FBI barrier test and still penetrate to the same approximate depth into 10% ballistic gelatin.

I have posted the Barnes 300 BLK results of that and it is more barrier blind than the best 5.56mm ammunition. I also posted a high speed video of the FBI steel barrier test and the bullet did what most cannot - fully expanded after shooting through the car door test.

M855 is terribly un-barrier blind. Barnes 300 BLK is awesomely barrier blind.

http://youtu.be/9mXa5AiT0r4

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zpat
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Re: Massive 300blk penetration disappointments.

Post by zpat »

I was talking about Barrier Penetration, not barrier blind. I simply referred to the Barnes 50 TSX Black Hills as being barrier blind AND barrier penetrating.

BP is different than AP.

M855 is very good BP, poor barrier blind.
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