Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Discussion about rifles in 300 AAC BLACKOUT (7.62x35mm), hosted by the creator of the cartridge.

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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by 300Blk »

The ammo is made by Remington.

Subsonic is shipping today, as far as I know.
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by JohnDS »

Gotcha, thought Hornady was involved in the production of the ammo. So they aren't involved at all.

Exciting news about factory ammo becoming available. Which distributors will be receiver shipments first so those of us craving know who to order from =)
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by jlwilliams »

daviscustom wrote:I was simply wondering why 30 carbine would be a bad option. It's a straight walled cartridge so I assume with carbide dies no lube would be needed. Since it is not a brand spank'n new cartridge there may be deals to be had on brass and reamers and dies. The slow twist standard barrel is certainly a big strike against 30 carbine since it would mean a custom barrel. Mostly I was just kicking the idea around and thought maybe I could get a straight answer instead of just a line-up of 300 Blackout cheerleaders. It very well may be that 300 blk is the best choice, but I was curious why it would be better other then the obvious availability of factory subsonic ammo and factory chambered rifles. ( I realize these are not small considerations)

I have a pretty good supply of .308 bullets, and as of yet, no brass/dies/guns for any of these options, so this was simply a fact finding mission....I had/have no other agenda in asking my questions.
A friend of mine experimented with 30 carbine subsonics a while back. A problem he ran into was seating the bullets. When a longer than 'standard' bullet was seated deep enough, the bullet was too narrow for the neck of the case. He got some reasonable results using 150 grain bullets meant for 30-30, but he said they weren't quite right. I don't really remember what the problem was but he did abandon the project for other things. I do remember at the time that he wasn't getting loads that could work in a carbine. His best results were in a Contender that he uses as a load test platform. He did say at one point that if a round will only work in a single shot, he'd be better off with a rimmed round like a 30-30.

It's too bad the 30 carbine cartridge isn't all it could be. I love the carbines themselves. Great handling little guns. Unfortunately the round doesn't have a lot of versatility.

Direct answer to the 'is there anything wrong with the 30 carbine for this aplication?' is -yes. The taper of the case plus the taper of the bullets, tapering in oposite directions, will screw you when you try to load bullets other than those meant for the round.

The 7.62x25 based whisper rounds are neat, but you are limited to about 150 grains. The case just doesn't hold enough powder to push much more pill than that, even subsonicly.

30-30 can be loaded up all kinds of cool ways, but you would have to either live with slow twist rates or get a blank chambered. Also limited to what type of action you can use. If I had a 30 cal can, I'd thread up a 30-30 just because. I wouldn't use a 30-30 as a starting point for a suppressed rifle platform.

The 300 Blackout is designed for exactly what you want to do. If you want a 30 cal suppressed rifle, the 300 Blackout is the path of least headache and best result.
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by 300Blk »

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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by Dolomite_Supafly »

jlwilliams wrote:
daviscustom wrote:I was simply wondering why 30 carbine would be a bad option. It's a straight walled cartridge so I assume with carbide dies no lube would be needed. Since it is not a brand spank'n new cartridge there may be deals to be had on brass and reamers and dies. The slow twist standard barrel is certainly a big strike against 30 carbine since it would mean a custom barrel. Mostly I was just kicking the idea around and thought maybe I could get a straight answer instead of just a line-up of 300 Blackout cheerleaders. It very well may be that 300 blk is the best choice, but I was curious why it would be better other then the obvious availability of factory subsonic ammo and factory chambered rifles. ( I realize these are not small considerations)

I have a pretty good supply of .308 bullets, and as of yet, no brass/dies/guns for any of these options, so this was simply a fact finding mission....I had/have no other agenda in asking my questions.
A friend of mine experimented with 30 carbine subsonics a while back. A problem he ran into was seating the bullets. When a longer than 'standard' bullet was seated deep enough, the bullet was too narrow for the neck of the case. He got some reasonable results using 150 grain bullets meant for 30-30, but he said they weren't quite right. I don't really remember what the problem was but he did abandon the project for other things. I do remember at the time that he wasn't getting loads that could work in a carbine. His best results were in a Contender that he uses as a load test platform. He did say at one point that if a round will only work in a single shot, he'd be better off with a rimmed round like a 30-30.

It's too bad the 30 carbine cartridge isn't all it could be. I love the carbines themselves. Great handling little guns. Unfortunately the round doesn't have a lot of versatility.

Direct answer to the 'is there anything wrong with the 30 carbine for this aplication?' is -yes. The taper of the case plus the taper of the bullets, tapering in oposite directions, will screw you when you try to load bullets other than those meant for the round.

The 7.62x25 based whisper rounds are neat, but you are limited to about 150 grains. The case just doesn't hold enough powder to push much more pill than that, even subsonicly.

30-30 can be loaded up all kinds of cool ways, but you would have to either live with slow twist rates or get a blank chambered. Also limited to what type of action you can use. If I had a 30 cal can, I'd thread up a 30-30 just because. I wouldn't use a 30-30 as a starting point for a suppressed rifle platform.

The 300 Blackout is designed for exactly what you want to do. If you want a 30 cal suppressed rifle, the 300 Blackout is the path of least headache and best result.
I have done a lot of shooting and testing of subsonics using a 7.62x25 Tokarev case. I have personally pushed 180 grain bullets well into supersonic territory. I had to scale back the load of HS-6 and Longshot to keep them subsonic out of 16" barrels. They were also 1/2" accurate at 100 yards. If you are using Quickload to determine whether it will work there is something wierd about how it calcualtes everything realted to the Tok case. We have found that the actual velocities are a lot lower than those given in Quickload. There have even been loads that should have been supersonic but never made it out of the barrel. After ramping up the charge we were able to get the velocities we needed.

I have friends who used the load data I gave them to run these through AR's. These will feed from a standard AR mag and if you want cheap fun use a magblock and shoot surplus. There was even talk by another friend about trying to get LE interested because of the benefits of this over a 9mm and the ability to shoot cheap surplus during training. They are no longer constrained to using expensive duty ammo to train with.

This is one guy I gave all my info to in order to help him out.
http://www.youtube.com/user/L2SAR15
He used a gas piston system on his. He is shooting 200 grain bullets out of a suppressed FA AR.

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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by humzai »

The problem with 7.62x25 tok in ar is that the surplus ammo has all but dried up. You can only get the polish stuff which sucks. I was working on a tok ar project but now that the surplus is gone there is no point to it. I am stuck with 1k rounds and pps43 25 mags but I could probably get rid of them fairly easily.
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by Lathebuilder »

silencertalk wrote:AcuSport, RSR, and about 40 others.
RSR Group sure sold out quickly.
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by 82nd airborne »

humzai wrote:The problem with 7.62x25 tok in ar is that the surplus ammo has all but dried up. You can only get the polish stuff which sucks. I was working on a tok ar project but now that the surplus is gone there is no point to it. I am stuck with 1k rounds and pps43 25 mags but I could probably get rid of them fairly easily.
You can handload for it and make some pretty good loads. I had a cz52 as an early teen, and no money, so I made up alot of data for the round. Then one day, the firing pin got tired of being contained inside the gun, and jumped out poking me in the adam's apple. I got a glock two days later.
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by yellowfin »

I just had a totally wacky thought. Why not the 7.92x33? Why wasn't/isn't it brought up as a possible subsonic AR caliber? It already existed, had previously been tested as being a good performer for what it was, non tapered case, and has a bit of nostalgic value in being THE original assault rifle caliber. 8mm subsonic capable bullets are definitely available.
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Re: Pros/cons of 7.62x25 vs 30 carbine vs 300 Blackout

Post by 300Blk »

Yes, in an alternate reality Dune/Doom/Brazil/Firefly/Wild Wild West/Cowboys and Aliens perhaps. Otherwise, 300 AAC BLACKOUT.
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