Whole Bunches wrote:My Barnes 110 gr load is normally 20.0 H110, but did try 19.0 and 20.1 H110. Nosler load is 19.0 H110. Caution, do not use that Nosler load if the oal is less than 2.2”! Start low and work up for your gun.
That’s going to be really close to 100% and should eliminate powder shifting.
Primer would be another possibility, Barnes is likely 7 1/2.
Bolt speed will also effect the depth of dimple you get from the firing pin. This could be enough to alter ignition.
Whole Bunches, have you had the same problem with the 120’s or any of your other rifles?
Measured my 110gr Barnes reload. Before chambering 2.252" oal. After chambering (first round from mag) 2.252" oal. Black tip had no deformation after chambering. I did note that at about the beginning of the full diameter part of the bullet there were light marks nearly the full circumference of the bullet. Loaded round fit my Sheridan gage before and after chambering.
Used both Tula/Wolf KVB223M and CCI 400 primers. CCI are used with the Barnes in my bolt action rifles (or I get a few failures to fire). KVB223M (a hard cup magnum primer no longer imported) is used in autoloading rifles. I tried both primers trying to eliminate the 1st being off.
Not a whiz bang shot, but "OK". Working up deer loads for my 6.5 Grendel, I fired a .595" (4 shots) and a .39" (5 shots) center to center group at 100yd off a rest this week. My Blackouts give me 1 to 1 1/4" 100yd groups (the ones I take hunting). Sighting in my newest Blackout (the one with problems with Barnes 110gr black tips), I got a 3/4" group (3 shots) at 100yd. I don't like recoil, that's why I shoot lots of 5.56, Blackout, Grendel, and 6.8SPC and often use a suppressor. I actually have 2 30 cal suppressors and use both to see which one any given rifle prefers. My Ark30 often shrinks the groups. No suppressor baffle strikes.
The "problem" Blackout has a 4.5-14x Mueller APV scope. That is not my normal Blackout hunting scope...I normally use 2-7x and 2-8x as their size is more fitting to the Blackout, but the APV is the temporary scope on that rifle for testing and deer season. After my deer hunting trip, it will be replaced with my thermal for night hog hunting (that's why I wanted to use the Barnes 110's).
When testing for new loads, a digital RCBS scale (calibrated before each use) is used. Once THE charge is found, I use a powder measure and H110 in the Blackout.
For any "serious" use (testing and hunting), I use converted LC brass, which I've trimmed to a max length of 1.368" and no shorter than 1.35". Shorter and other brands of brass is used for plinking.
No high pressure signs. LC converted brass is fine for case neck thickness (some foreign stuff is too thick). If the loaded round doesn't fit the Sheridan gage, it normally means the neck is too thick. Have never had a LC case fail the gage in that way. I shoot lots of M160 frangibles (compressed lead and bakelite powder), but none in the new GM bbl.
I am gonna try different buffers and a "rifle" buffered lower and see what that does. It'll be a few days before I can get to that.
Hey, New Guy - Your talking to a guy that's killed more deer than blue tongue. Way more with a Blackout than anyone here so your advice is just a bit silly. Leave it be. You might want to read a bit of history here and sort out who is who and what is what. Whole Bunches has been there and done that, one of the best hunters here and a great shot.
Read some history, post count don't count for shit.
You can't beat the mountain, pilgrim. Mountains got its own way.
The marks on the circumference of your Black tips are likely just the end of the throat, start of the lead. That's a good thing, as it means your bullet is starting near the lands. Negative. That bullet won't hit the lands until over 2.400". If this barrel was short chambered he would know it.
I'd bet that you'd pick up more accuracy and better chrono numbers if you weigh each thrown charge, if your not already, & if you feel it worth your time.
I'm going to say it's your Mueller scope. In my younger, lower income days I tired hard, time and time again to get the best scopes Mueller produces to work for me in competition. Unfortunately, I never could. After many warranty repairs & replacement I gave up. But they do, or did have great customer service. More recently, every rifle that has came to me with a Mueller scope, the scope has been the problem. Every time. The internet is a huge place and I'm sure there are many people that have found acceptable service with them, but my experience is different. Why would a bad scope cause only first round flyers?
In using the powder measure for the Blackout, I use a pistol rotor (long narrow cavity for more uniform results) and H110. In setting it up for the charge, I throw 4 series of 10 charges, each series weighed and divided by 10. I'm not satisfied until it reads exactly my desired charge on average. I get the same shooting accuracy as in weighed charges. The RCBS Charge Master is supposed to be good for +/- 0.1 grain per weigh, so it's not "perfect" either. However, I've never individually weighed a lot of thrown charges other than the first one or two thrown after filling up the powder measure to make sure it's still set to the charge indicated on the paper I've placed in the empty hopper in case I've made a mistake.
At last count, I've got 15 Blackouts (rifles, uppers, or conversion barrels (for XCR-L and Sig MCX)) I'm keeping bbl wear records on. This first round out of the group with Barnes black tips in only one barrel has me stumped so far. It's gotta be something with the chambering action of the first round vs other rounds fed semiautomatic. I would have thought it'd go away in a very few rounds as the bbl extension and bolt lugs get worn in (the bolt is nitrided, so that might prevent wear in right away). Hopefully later next week I can take multiple lowers and buffers to my neighbor's range and start swapping parts and testing. It only takes 2 shots per test to see if the first round is away from the second one.
Friends have seen and witnessed my targets with the first round out and made suggestions. One idea was go ahead and shoot the first shot into the ground and don't unload the rifle until done with my week's hunting at my brother's farm. Not very safe, so NO to that. It has nothing to do with a cold clean barrel. After the last patch is used, I spray a clean patch with parts cleaner and run it through the bore to pick up any traces of bore solvent. Testing shows that protocol maintains the first shot (other than this GM bbl and Barnes black tips) goes into the grouping of subsequent shots. But to be even more sure when hunting, since I have the out of state hunting license cost and an 8 hour trip to Tignal, Georgia, prior to my hunting trip, each rifle has a fouling shot of its hunting load fired before I leave home.
Oh, I've looked at the bolt lugs and bbl extension and saw no obvious problems, and I'd tried a second bolt too.
A weird thing about me is I can never make up my mind what to take deer hunting, so I'll take 3-4 rifles, lay them out on the spare bed and rotate, taking a different one each time I leave the house, morning and afternoon. That way I've taken deer with various calibers and rifle actions. Although I'm a Blackout nut, the last 2 years besides taking deer with a Blackout, I've also taken deer with a 5.56 (last year an AR 5.56 and the year before a bolt action 5.56). Variety, the spice of life.
This year will be bitter sweet: My brother is selling his farm and retiring to Utah. My wife and I are too old to start over and can't afford it anyway. Secretly, part of me wouldn't be upset if the farm takes another year to sell....don't tell my brother. He reports a wide rack 8 pt is coming in to his fields and a nice boar is being seen day and night. I've never taken a Georgia hog.
Thanks for letting me yak a bit. To the OP, please try another load/bullet...it worked for me. And, yes, 2 of the rifles going with me love the Barnes 110 black tips and maybe they will be the "lucky" rifles to have with me when I see a shootable deer. My first 3 days are bucks only, followed by 4 days of does. If you shoot 2 antlered deer, one of which has to have 4 points or more on one side. I've let a lot of 2 to 6 point bucks walk over the years. It's fun just watching them in their natural habitat, and they make good lookouts for other deer coming in. Last year I took a 7 point as the first deer, so the "pressure" to count points was off. Strange, when doe days started, no mature does were seen for the rest of the trip, so my 2nd deer was a 4 point.
The marks on the circumference of your Black tips are likely just the end of the throat, start of the lead. That's a good thing, as it means your bullet is starting near the lands. Negative. That bullet won't hit the lands until over 2.400". If this barrel was short chambered he would know it.
I'd bet that you'd pick up more accuracy and better chrono numbers if you weigh each thrown charge, if your not already, & if you feel it worth your time.
I'm going to say it's your Mueller scope. In my younger, lower income days I tired hard, time and time again to get the best scopes Mueller produces to work for me in competition. Unfortunately, I never could. After many warranty repairs & replacement I gave up. But they do, or did have great customer service. More recently, every rifle that has came to me with a Mueller scope, the scope has been the problem. Every time. The internet is a huge place and I'm sure there are many people that have found acceptable service with them, but my experience is different.
Good luck with your hunting.
Splayed leaves that have not totally given out. yet.
rebel wrote:Hey, New Guy - Your talking to a guy that's killed more deer than blue tongue. Way more with a Blackout than anyone here so your advice is just a bit silly. Leave it be. You might want to read a bit of history here and sort out who is who and what is what. Whole Bunches has been there and done that, one of the best hunters here and a great shot.
Read some history, post count don't count for shit.
It's very simple, if the ops thinks I'm silly, he can simply ignore me. But you choose to publicly call me out and create board drama. Why the need for drama? Well you called me out so here's my defense & rebuttle:
Oh, so he made a post, looking for help trying to chase down an issue. But I'm not supposed to offer free help, nor my free time I took to write it? If he doesn't want or need help, or feedback or input, why would have he posted?
Okay, so he's killed a mountain of deer. Good for Him. Obviously nobody tipped him off to Mueller scopes.
What does being a good hunter have to do with being a great gun diagnostic man? Two separate things.
Don't care who you are or how many million deer you have killed after how many trillion rounds of blackout you have put down range. You still don't know it all and can still learn something. That goes for every shooter by the way....
The saying among instructors is "Always a student, sometimes a teacher." & "Humility expedites learning."
I was hungry.
You can't beat the mountain, pilgrim. Mountains got its own way.
Here's 5 groups. This series was testing the Barnes 110 black tips with different primers and H110 charges. Bbl was fouled by firing and not cleaned between groups. A fan was on the suppressor and bbl to keep them cool. A couple of minutes was taken between shots in each group so the suppressor and bbl did not get hot. Suppressor tightness was checked after each shot (it never got loose). In every group, the lowest shot was the first one fired. These targets were shot at 34yd. The first shot is proportionately lower the further the target distance (I.e., at 50yd it would be 1.5" low out of the group instead of the ~1" out at 34yd).
The particular Mueller APV scope has been a proven performer on other rifles and works great when Nosler 125 BT's are used. It was only put on that particular upper for testing loads and a fall deer hunt. After the hunt my FLIR RS32 thermal will be used.
Here's 3 groups with the Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip bullets and that same scope. Again, bbl was fouled and not cleaned between groups. I didn't write the distance on the target, but I believe it was 50yd. The middle target was a fire it rapidly to get the bbl and suppressor hot test. It was actually smaller. My speculation was that I kept the rifle to my shoulder so it was a more consistent hold/position at the bench verses taking the rifle off the shoulder to let the bbl cool between shots to better simulate firing from a cold bbl while hunting.
My wife is home recovering from surgery, and I am the caregiver, so it'll be a few days before I can go and test the Barnes black tips with more buffers and lowers. I've now fired 266 rounds through this bbl; it ought to be broken in now (cleaning after each range trip).
Edited to add:
PS No offense taken to any ideas/suggestions. I once was shooting test groups and a guy came to me and said no offense, but you could use a better bench technique. Said he was a bench rest competitor. Showed me a different way to hold the rifle I had with me; said I was "putting too much of myself into the rifle" by holding it too tight, especially with my non-trigger hand; just let it recoil straight back the same each shot...it won't hurt you. Following his directions, I shot the best group I'd ever shot with my Micro7. I will also try another scope.
