Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Discussion about rifles in 300 AAC BLACKOUT (7.62x35mm), hosted by the creator of the cartridge.

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rebel
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by rebel »

Not discrediting the OP at all, so don't take it that way. There is a whole new group that is trying this cartridge out. Some, like the old guard, experiment, the 2cd bunch, push it to it's limits and the new are hungry for load data and performance results. Subsonic defense ammo has been discussed to death. Unless you live in a tunnel and only have one direction to shoot - forget subs. I could kill a guy in North Korea by aiming at the right piece of ground in the US. They just overpenetrate - even expanding ones on dry targets. I could dig up pics but trust me- weight vs. household sh*t doesn't come out well. Supers dump their stuff fast and violently.
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dellet
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by dellet »

rebel wrote:
Dr.Phil wrote:As DS so eloquently stated, subsonic rounds will penetrate much greater than supersonic ones.
If you are set on using a subsonic for self defense, go with the Lehigh Controlled Fracturing.

A much better choice is a super sonic Lehigh defense Close Quarters bullet.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015 ... ng-bullet/
It is an absolutely devastating round that has the least potential for over penetration of all 300 BLK projectiles.
Absolutely - agree 100% I shot them in a 2 gal. cheap plastic container filled with water at 50 feet. The recovered pieces of the bullet were contained though the energy delivered was massive. Keep it in a 1-7 or slower twist. Just ask dellet :mrgreen:
The only thing worse in a defensive situation than a subsonic that passes through every wall in the house and the engine block of your mother in laws car, so she can never leave, is a super sonic round that explodes when it leaves your barrel and never makes it to the target. :shock:

No matter what bullet you choose, test it. That doesn’t mean a paper target and you can hit it 10% of the time off a bench. Some sort of test media to make sure you KNOW it works.

I’ve tested a lot of bullets over the years for this cartridge. Some were already on the market and failed miserably. Plenty were caught before hitting the streets. Don’t believe manufacturers hype or the majority of the “ utoob give me free crap so I can sound like a nascar race winner pimping your product to get click money” crowd. Spend a bit of bullet money and put what you are planning to trust your life with to the test.

Trust, but verify.
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
jimmyheadgear
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by jimmyheadgear »

So these are really for hunting animals?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/ ... 1066138648
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Dolomite_Supafly
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by Dolomite_Supafly »

I friend of mine was selling some bullets being marketed as subsonic hunting bullets for the 300 Blackout. They were big and heavy with a hollow point. I was told they would expand to well over 1/2" down to 800 fps. I looked the bullets over and questioned his claim that they would expand at all. He said they were designed by a VERY prominent competitive shooter and that the shooter has used them to take dozens of deer. I was skeptical but I bought 100 to try figuring they had some sort of magic inside I could not see.

So I load some up to ~1,000 fps to test. First shot was into my container that holds ~15 gallons of water. It was an container used to transport medications to pharmacies. It was perfect because it was ~30" tall and ~12" in diameter, not too big but will plenty big to stop every bullet I had tried. First shot and I notice water coming out the bottom. So I dump the water out and started looking for the bullet. It was probably 1/2 way to China and the hole in the bottom of the container was tiny, proving the bullet didn't expand. Thinking it was a fluke I applied duct tape and filled the container again. Second shot was just like the first, no expansion and another hole. I now had holes in my testing rig that needed to be fixed but now I run a steel plate in the bottom.

Next I decide to use my big block of clay. Now normally the block of clay stops most bullets that expand, regardless of velocity. When I shot it with these they left a small hole all the way through and it became obvious that clay wasn't going to cause them to expand, or even stop them, but I still took a few more shots to make sure.

And finally I tried my giant block of plumber's putting. That stuff is so dense it will stop everything and cause bullets that were never designed to expand to expand. It gives any bullet the best possible chance of expanding and does so in a few inches. Most hollow point pistol loads only go 2-3 inches before stopping and most times the bullet expands perfectly. Rifle calibers also stop inside the block but do go 6-8 inches before stopping. Well those bullets did stop but never expanded. They were so perfect that I could have reloaded them. A few more shots and the same result, no expansion at all.

So I call my buddy up and tell him his friend is full of it and these will not expand. And that is when I found out what they were. His friend was taking 220 grain Sierra Pro Hunters and chucking them into a lathe. Then he uses a 1/8" drill bit to drill a hole that was 3/16" deep to create a bullet that he claims will expand down to 800 fps. With the thick jacket and small hollow point there was no way they were expanding at subsonic velocities and would likely never expand at any velocity the 300 Blackout could achieve. I even loaded them a lot hotter than 1,000 fps and got the same exact results, no expansion at all.

I tell this story to impress that you MUST test the claims made about any bullet. Some people will flat out lie about their bullet's performance. And even if they are not lying the bullets are often tested under ideal conditions to get the result they are looking for.

Here is a very informative chart showing the typical expansion for some popular bullets at certain velocities. Some are penetrating over five feet with little to no expansion.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
I would post the image but it is too large for here.

And one more thing, expansion isn't the only way to increase performance. Tumbling often results in a wound channel that is at least as big as most expanding hollow points. I actually prefer a bullet that tumbles over an expanding bullet. The reason why is a bullet that tumbles will tumble regardless of how low the velocity gets while expansion only gets worse as velocity drops.
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jimmyheadgear
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by jimmyheadgear »

Dolomite_Supafly wrote:I friend of mine was selling some bullets being marketed as subsonic hunting bullets for the 300 Blackout. They were big and heavy with a hollow point. I was told they would expand to well over 1/2" down to 800 fps. I looked the bullets over and questioned his claim that they would expand at all. He said they were designed by a VERY prominent competitive shooter and that the shooter has used them to take dozens of deer. I was skeptical but I bought 100 to try figuring they had some sort of magic inside I could not see.

So I load some up to ~1,000 fps to test. First shot was into my container that holds ~15 gallons of water. It was an container used to transport medications to pharmacies. It was perfect because it was ~30" tall and ~12" in diameter, not too big but will plenty big to stop every bullet I had tried. First shot and I notice water coming out the bottom. So I dump the water out and started looking for the bullet. It was probably 1/2 way to China and the hole in the bottom of the container was tiny, proving the bullet didn't expand. Thinking it was a fluke I applied duct tape and filled the container again. Second shot was just like the first, no expansion and another hole. I now had holes in my testing rig that needed to be fixed but now I run a steel plate in the bottom.

Next I decide to use my big block of clay. Now normally the block of clay stops most bullets that expand, regardless of velocity. When I shot it with these they left a small hole all the way through and it became obvious that clay wasn't going to cause them to expand, or even stop them, but I still took a few more shots to make sure.

And finally I tried my giant block of plumber's putting. That stuff is so dense it will stop everything and cause bullets that were never designed to expand to expand. It gives any bullet the best possible chance of expanding and does so in a few inches. Most hollow point pistol loads only go 2-3 inches before stopping and most times the bullet expands perfectly. Rifle calibers also stop inside the block but do go 6-8 inches before stopping. Well those bullets did stop but never expanded. They were so perfect that I could have reloaded them. A few more shots and the same result, no expansion at all.

So I call my buddy up and tell him his friend is full of it and these will not expand. And that is when I found out what they were. His friend was taking 220 grain Sierra Pro Hunters and chucking them into a lathe. Then he uses a 1/8" drill bit to drill a hole that was 3/16" deep to create a bullet that he claims will expand down to 800 fps. With the thick jacket and small hollow point there was no way they were expanding at subsonic velocities and would likely never expand at any velocity the 300 Blackout could achieve. I even loaded them a lot hotter than 1,000 fps and got the same exact results, no expansion at all.

I tell this story to impress that you MUST test the claims made about any bullet. Some people will flat out lie about their bullet's performance. And even if they are not lying the bullets are often tested under ideal conditions to get the result they are looking for.

Here is a very informative chart showing the typical expansion for some popular bullets at certain velocities. Some are penetrating over five feet with little to no expansion.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
I would post the image but it is too large for here.

And one more thing, expansion isn't the only way to increase performance. Tumbling often results in a wound channel that is at least as big as most expanding hollow points. I actually prefer a bullet that tumbles over an expanding bullet. The reason why is a bullet that tumbles will tumble regardless of how low the velocity gets while expansion only gets worse as velocity drops.
Great post. Thanks for the info.
jtaylor996
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dellet
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by dellet »

jtaylor996 wrote:
rebel wrote: Keep it in a 1-7 or slower twist. Just ask dellet :mrgreen:
What's this about? Got a link?
viewtopic.php?f=141&t=94105

I break stuff on a regular basis. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
300 Blackout, not just for sub-sonics.
DeaneM1A
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by DeaneM1A »

The most important aspect of the new Hornady 190 subsonic is that a major ammo company is challenging the over-penetration and no-expansion problem. I hope and expect that other major companies will bring out similar bullets and ammo. The future of the 300 Blackout will prove to be very interesting.
45scw
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by 45scw »

DeaneM1A wrote:The most important aspect of the new Hornady 190 subsonic is that a major ammo company is challenging the over-penetration and no-expansion problem. I hope and expect that other major companies will bring out similar bullets and ammo. The future of the 300 Blackout will prove to be very interesting.
I got the Hornady 190 grain and ordered some of the LeHigh 194 grain. The LeHigh is very expensive, but one sales outlet is discounting it.

So far, the Hornady functions 100 percent. But everything I am putting through the Wilson is functioning 100 percent at 300 rounds, subsonic or super.

If nothing else, the 300 BLK is fun to experiment with.
DeaneM1A
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Re: Subsonic Defense Ammunition

Post by DeaneM1A »

45scw wrote:
DeaneM1A wrote:The most important aspect of the new Hornady 190 subsonic is that a major ammo company is challenging the over-penetration and no-expansion problem. I hope and expect that other major companies will bring out similar bullets and ammo. The future of the 300 Blackout will prove to be very interesting.
I got the Hornady 190 grain and ordered some of the LeHigh 194 grain. The LeHigh is very expensive, but one sales outlet is discounting it.

So far, the Hornady functions 100 percent. But everything I am putting through the Wilson is functioning 100 percent at 300 rounds, subsonic or super.

If nothing else, the 300 BLK is fun to experiment with.
What size groups are you getting with the 190s?
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